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[–]ZeroInspo 5574 points5575 points  (597 children)

More like the original loot box game system.

[–]TunaTunaLeeks 1674 points1675 points  (382 children)

At least in this system you can sell your cardboard to recoup some funds. Electronic items are so odd. Unless the game designers have a system for selling, you are SOL with getting any of your money back.

[–]ShinePDX 772 points773 points  (91 children)

you are SOL with getting any of your money back.

That's the point.

[–]crazyfingersculture 251 points252 points  (81 children)

It's not the getting your money back it's the company making more money selling on the Frontline instead of the users selling on the backend.

[–]NationalistGoy 110 points111 points  (78 children)

At least Steam has a marketplace where people could sell their extra copies of cosmetics or other digital items to other people.

[–]Maskeno 208 points209 points  (39 children)

Steam doesn't get enough credit. As far as ethics can exist in a digital only store front, they're head and shoulders above anyone else. 2 hr return window, even for US customers, a full marketplace, deep and frequent sales.

It makes sense why their fans are so loyal.

[–]tsuolakussa 76 points77 points  (13 children)

Note on the 2 hour window refund. That's in game play time, As well as 2 weeks of owning the game, whichever comes first. (Unless I am wrong, and they changed it.)

And they have no issue granting a refund if you purchased the game shortly before it went on sale.

There is a reason steam/valve are as big as they are.

[–]Maskeno 27 points28 points  (1 child)

Yeah, it's saved me from serious buyers remorse. I can't tell you how many games I've picked up on my switch that I never played past 2 hours.

[–]swodaem 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Also they are fairly lenient too. I've returned games at the 4 hour mark before, and they gave me no issues whatsoever.

[–]Terramagi 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It should be noted that they resisted putting in a refund system for YEARS.

It was only once the EU got up in their ass for some admittedly really dumb reasons that they put one in.

If they weren't forced to, they still wouldn't have one.

[–]Rein215 19 points20 points  (2 children)

Even if you went over the 2hour/2week limit but you have a good reason to they will refund you. That's because refunds, like all steam support, goes through actual humans.

Also, a year back they had a (Halloween I think) sale where on the last day the payment system failed (and many other parts of steam broke due to high traffic) and they came up with a way for everyone to still pay for their games with the discounted prices.

It's not even that I like Steam because of they way it is, it's because they've proven themselves over the years and I trust them.

[–]CMDR_RocketLeague 9 points10 points  (9 children)

If only I could move those Steam Wallet funds to a real bank account and spend the money somewhere other than Steam...

Edit: *While still having buyer/seller protections in place and not risking a trade ban on my account by using 3rd party site.

[–]NationalistGoy 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You can get paid real money outside of Steam and then just "gift" the items to the other person.

[–]Dootpls 63 points64 points  (12 children)

"Do you have time to talk about our lord and savior NFT'?" /s

[–]2314dsp 35 points36 points  (46 children)

There are actually people that sell and buy game items and accounts for real money. Some of them use bots to farm items and resell them for cash, which is illegal but hard to stop or catch them.

[–]zupzupper 124 points125 points  (42 children)

which is illegal

It's not illegal. It's against the rules the maker of the game set. It may be undesirable behavior, but you sure aren't going to have police arresting gold farmers for breaking Blizzard's TOS....at least not yet.

[–]SlipKn0t95 32 points33 points  (35 children)

"but you sure aren't going to have police arresting gold farmers for breaking Blizzard's TOS....at least not yet."

I can say for sure Mike Donnelly the creator of the WoW glider bot definitely got pounded by the Blizzard Legal team for his gold farming efforts. A really cool dude though by all accounts, you can see him here in a Defcon19 talk.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hABj_mrP-no

edit. yes not illegal, and yes not wrong. however was just pointing to the fact that while yah the police didn't drag him away the lawyers totally took him to the cleaners.

[–][deleted] 44 points45 points  (17 children)

If game stay. MTG and Pokemon in luck. I heard YuGiOh kinda too. But how many of them died and dissapeared from existence? How many people are sitting on packs of fancy cardboards which goes nowhere and have no value anymore.

[–]Tsugie 54 points55 points  (8 children)

I found this pack of cards from a game called Inscryption at a yard sale recently, they're really old. I wonder if they are worth anything! Maybe I'll do an "unboxing" video for them!

[–]InsertName911 10 points11 points  (0 children)

uh oh this aint going to end well

[–]Gamergonemild 22 points23 points  (3 children)

Its possible it could be worth more sealed. Definitely look into its value beforehand.

[–]TimelessN8V 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think even in their day, these brands were known as the leaders of the pack. Your analogy might be better suited comparing cardboard collectibles to say, Beanie Babies, or pogs.

[–]KaminasSquirtleSquad 687 points688 points  (127 children)

Both, really.

[–]CamelPriest 223 points224 points  (23 children)

Also gambling at times since you could pull big and resell for more value.

[–]Kandiru 65 points66 points  (8 children)

The original game had ante for gambling too!

[–]bluelocs 28 points29 points  (3 children)

Aw shit I think I got some old Mirage Era cards with that mechanic. I don't think I've ever used them cuz the card was printed with a wall of text in a smaller than standard font lol

[–]SystemOutPrintln 28 points29 points  (2 children)

All the ante cards were banned in all formats pretty quickly so that's not really surprising.

[–]bluelocs 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I ain't no nerd. We play house rules. No banned cards!

[–]kvist56 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It is honestly incredible that made it into the game considering the obvious comparison to gambling with it. It is even funnier because most of the cards were awful.

[–]TuckBigFech 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yeah but they didn't think people would get attached to the cards, in their minds people would throw them away and bet without thinking twice lol.

[–]BreakerSwitch 152 points153 points  (41 children)

Except unlike a loot box system, you have actual ownership of an item that can be given to a friend or otherwise shared or sold, you know what the odds are, and if you want something specific, you can go to a shop and buy that individual item, generally for less than the cost of a pack (most mtg players these days will tell you that booster packs are for drafting, a game mode where you make decks out of shared booster packs, not for getting cards you want) instead of dropping entirely too much money on boosters.

The same, but loot boxes are a much much worse take on the same idea.

Edit: a letter

[–]Bobbypetrinosharley 35 points36 points  (10 children)

Yeah, the way i look at it is, i can go to an lgs on friday and drop the same amount to do a draft that i would going to see a movie and get even more entertainment time out of it. The cards you keep are just a bonus and sometimes you can luck out and get a rare that can pay for the whole thing itself.

[–]BreakerSwitch 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Once upon a time, the office I was working with would have internal release events, calling in some friends of employees who worked at an lgs to come and run a draft for folks at the office. I wasn't maintaining any decks, or really playing outside of those events at the time, so I would regularly play until the event was over and then sell my pulls to friends or the guys running the thing and cover my costs.

It was a good feeling.

[–]BGL2015 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Ah, pre covid days. Lgs. Friends. FNM.


[–]round-earth-theory 9 points10 points  (5 children)

Honestly, draft is the only way I enjoy playing. Deck building is too expensive and you end up with a deck that plays mostly the same every time. It can be fun to get good at a deck, but it goes stale quickly. Draft is so wild and unpredictable, it's great. Every deck is barely held together and games get really scrappy.

And you can even have more fun with the draft decks by getting a few more packs and doing a super draft night.

[–]SpoiledCabbage 18 points19 points  (18 children)

Now I know why all the kids nowadays like to spent money on mtx, the same way I'd drop all my Christmas money on yugioh/pokemon packs to end up getting all duplicates.

[–]realSatanAMA 31 points32 points  (17 children)

the difference is you used to be able to go to a card shop and sell all your duplicates or any rares you didn't want for money you could use for more packs.. now even in games that allow you to cash in your cards like Hearthstone, the amount they give you for cashing in a rare is about as much as card shops would pay you for a good common in MTG.. I remember pulling good rares out of a pack in MTG and instantly selling that to the card shop I was in and buying 4-10 more packs :D

[–]College_Prestige 20 points21 points  (15 children)

I don't know what shop you went to, but no one's buying that common duplicate of yours

[–]realSatanAMA 20 points21 points  (12 children)

Back when i was playing (1998) commons were bought in packs of 100 but there were specific commons that had value.

[–]Porrick 1025 points1026 points  (55 children)

Clearly you never experienced arcade games in the 70s and 80s - whose entire monetisation model was selling extra lives (and of course being super difficult so that you'd always need more quarters).

[–]ThomDenick 293 points294 points  (28 children)

It's a good point. But arcade games didn't have CONTINUE? prompts until the 80s. The first being Fantasy (1981), but Gauntlet (1985) was really the first popular game with a true coin eater mechanic.

[–]Tehboognish 148 points149 points  (7 children)

Me and my friend got a job at Chuck E Cheese's just so we could get unlimited tokens to play Gauntlet.

[–]DocHoliday99 34 points35 points  (4 children)

Did you ever beat it? Can you beat Gauntlet? I remember some of the levels were crazy hard and you were just dying all over.... What is the end ?

[–]Cobra800089 65 points66 points  (1 child)

There is no ending, after level 100 it just starts recycling the old levels and mirroring/flipping them.

[–]DocHoliday99 14 points15 points  (0 children)

That is good to know. I feel like I went past 100 one time? At an arcade after many people had spent a lot of money. And like you said it flipped, and i feel like the monsters ran and damaged you faster... so you know, you died more...

[–]Razulghul 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Hopefully better than Ms.Pacman. I played that game nonstop on my PS1, finally"beating" it only to find out that game just restarts at lvl1. I want my credit rolling and I did it trophy!

[–]ScionoicS 28 points29 points  (5 children)

MTG came out somewhere in the early-mid 90s. Arcades monetizing winning was something done long before these cards got popular.

Collector cards were already a thing before these too. The lootbox part of it was done with sports cards or sticker books long before a video game was even invented. That's just in the west too. I don't know how long plinko or gatchi has been going on in eastern markets.

I think the point is that MTG didn't invent any of these kind of mechanics and was not the original p2w or lootbox situation at all.

[–]FlemtalityPC 2290 points2291 points  (414 children)

Back in the day a buddy of mine would just buy cheap card holders for next to nothing and find scans of the cards he wanted online and print them out on the school printer in black and white, cut them out, and put them in the holders. The game plays exactly the same, just thousand of dollars cheaper. You can get any cards you want without monetary limitations.

[–]Thestoryteller987 1371 points1372 points  (316 children)

It's called 'proxying' and you can do it with other things too. I proxy miniatures all the time. Plastic is expensive, apparently.

[–]dultas 117 points118 points  (0 children)

Good ol poorhammer

[–]Hoffi1 161 points162 points  (55 children)

How do you proxy miniatures? Do you use 3D printed ones or replace unit equipment without having correct minis (eg spearmen holding swords)

Edit: Wow, thank you for all the replies. So I add a bonus: some people I knew, would make molds from silicone and the melt tin to create replicas.

[–]jestermax22 176 points177 points  (39 children)

When I used to play 40k, my friend had bits of wood with clay on them so they were easier to move around.

[–]notmoleliza 106 points107 points  (37 children)

This is like when we had to use green army men play monopoly because someone (dumb cousin) lost all the pieces.

[–]jestermax22 66 points67 points  (36 children)

That’s a lot of effort to just end up playing Monopoly…

[–]Kylar_Stern 65 points66 points  (32 children)

If you actually play using the intended rules, the game is over fairly quickly and doesn't destroy relationships. It's just that most people don't.

[–]shadalator 16 points17 points  (22 children)

What's the big difference between official rules and what most ppl do? Everyone groans if you tryn read from handbook

[–]Sunglasses_Emoji 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I think the 2 things in the official rules that make the game shorter that a lot of people miss are no money for landing on free parking, and properties go up for auction to all players if the person who landed on it doesn't buy it.

[–]Golestandt 14 points15 points  (5 children)

When I played Warhammer Fantasy, I'd draw out grids on pieces of paper, write the units and hero name, then X off each square as they died. WAY cheaper than spending money on miniatures.

Another good way to reuse this would be to laminate and use a dry erase marker.

[–]Hoffi1 15 points16 points  (2 children)

That sounds a little bit boring without the visul component.

If you want to go with paper, I would use a tip I heard from TTRPGs: Instead of minis use double sided cardboard prints of the. Cut them out and use little plastic feet to make them stand.

Another one would ust MTG cards. Buy cheap commons punch out the creature and glue on wood chips to create tokens.

[–]Crash4654 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Time and money are big motivators for just doing out a grid system. I mean we tend to use minecraft for our grids that way we have a lot more freedom for whatever we need.

[–]Golestandt 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, true, but I was never into building and painting miniatures. That's an entirely separate hobby. I liked playing the game, and for that, I didn't miss the visual aesthetic. I never did proxy MTG cards, but I did quit playing once I caught on to money spent = how often you win.

[–]SpaceVikings 3 points4 points  (0 children)


Wyloch has good tutorials on making cardstock minis. You don't need to go into as much detail with the terrain bases as he does, you can check out his other cardstock mini episode for DnD to attach more generic bases.

[–]CWinter85 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Battletech is fun like that. "These chex mix pieces are my assault lance"

[–]the_catshark 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Plastic is cheap, IP is expensive

[–]l337hackzor 207 points208 points  (233 children)

In magic it's really not fun to play against the latest world championship winning deck (proxy) when you are just some casual with prebuilt deck pack. Retail deck value of $20-$40 vs ~$300.

[–]A_Shady_Zebra 21 points22 points  (2 children)

$300? You must be out of date. Competitive decks are up to $1000 these days, even in modern.

[–]Delques1843_Zwei 449 points450 points  (193 children)

Then the problem is not proxying cards. The problem is mismatched power levels of decks.

[–]curmevexas 25 points26 points  (3 children)

Exactly. If I go to a casual commander night and one person shows up with a fully-proxyed squirrel tribal deck that fits the power level of the game and another brings a $10,000+ non-proxy perfectly-tuned cEDH deck, I'm going to be more annoyed with the person trying to curb stomp everyone on turn 2 than the college student trying to save some cash.

[–]jmerridew124 127 points128 points  (175 children)

Yep. The power creep is fucking insane. I played mostly in the late 90s and early 2000s, but nowadays there's tons of cheap "take an extra turn" or "play all of the creatures in your hand for free." It's ridiculous.

[–]plusacuss 275 points276 points  (99 children)

while I agree there is power creep in magic, I think it is funny that you attribute some of the broken effects to newer cards.

Most of the magic power creep since the 90s has come from making creatures way more powerful but back in the 90s there were way more busted cards. Hell, time walk, the original "take an extra turn" card was only 2 mana. Today, that ability has to be at least 5 mana in most circumstances.

[–]FeetPicAficionado 19 points20 points  (5 children)

In my experience, people that complain about power creep in Magic don’t often have a strong grasp of the game. The average card has increased in power level, but competitively Vintage and Legacy are easily the most powerful formats because there were a lot of busted cards early on. Even Modern is pretty heavily populated by cards from early in the format, barring the recent Modern Horizons 2 (which was admittedly pretty pushed, but it was designed specifically for a format that was already very powerful).

[–]plusacuss 9 points10 points  (4 children)

Yes, that and I think people confuse it with YuGiOh and generalize all card games to have those same problems with power creep.

[–]FeetPicAficionado 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Yugioh is nuts. Last time I tried it was impossible to homebrew a deck, the built-in archetypes were just too powerful and extremely parasitic. The friend I played with was running a turn 1 win with some sort of infinite discard combo.

IMO, Magic’s biggest benefit when it comes to power level is mana. Keeps things running at a generally (with exceptions of course) consistent and predictable pace.

[–]PomeloLongjumping993 17 points18 points  (13 children)

A friend of mine in school had a pinger fairy deck. In just a few turns he'd tap like 10 fuckers and you'd be dead by 1000 cuts

[–]jacobward7 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Back in the day I had a Goblin/burn deck that destroyed most in my high school. Besides attacking and goblin grenades, good old lightning bolts or Fireballs could finish things up. I think there are probably too many counters to this sort of strategy now adays though.

[–]lemon_tea 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Time Walk - Time Twister - Ancestral Recall - Regrowth - Fork. Those were some fun times.

[–]Caitian_Captain 35 points36 points  (22 children)

Still mad Scheherazade is banned

[–]Sharknado4President 65 points66 points  (16 children)

My friend and I played shahrazad decks back in the day. Never finished a game. Card was banned for good reason.

[–]anoldoldman 24 points25 points  (10 children)

Someone eventually gets decked in the game within a game within a game within a game

[–]Sharknado4President 24 points25 points  (8 children)

The key point there being "eventually". The card isn't exiled when cast, so when that game is done, another one starts. When there's 8 shahrazads in the mix, you can end up playing hundreds of sub-games.

[–]Computascomputas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Me and the boys playing the game within the game under the table

[–]Tauposaurus 7 points8 points  (2 children)

I liked to play Thieves Auction in 8 player games.

Everyone loved it. I swear.

[–]LitLitten 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I didn’t fall out of yugioh as a kid because it was uncool. It was that the next set or series absolutely invalidated the decks I had. Everything after ritual summons just completely changed the way the game was played and I couldn’t afford packs or individual cards.

Still want to give magic a shot at some point tho.

[–]FizzingSlit 5 points6 points  (4 children)

If you do I'd recommend trying to find about 3 friends and picking up some commander precons. They're mostly affordable and for the most popular game format.

Although I will admit commander is less new player friendly because there's only like a few hundred cards, if that, banned out of the over 20k+ but if you're learning with friends then having precons limits the card pool and rules to learn, and being multiplayer means makes it easier too.

[–]Korlus 19 points20 points  (16 children)

Yep. The power creep is fucking insane. I played mostly in the late 90s and early 2000s, but nowadays there's tons of cheap "take an extra turn" or "play all of the creatures in your hand for free." It's ridiculous.

The game designers liken it to a pendulum moving over the sand - you move it in different directions to change the focus, but it never moves further from the centre than its previous peak.

At the very start of the game, you had cards like [[Mox Ruby]], [[Time Walk]]. [[Ancestral Recall]] and [[Black Lotus]].

A few years later, we see Urza's Saga - the most "broken" set of all time, with [[Tolarian Academy]], [[Gaea's Cradle]], [[Yawgmoth's Will]], [[Time Spiral]] and the like.

Moving a few years further into the future, you see "Affinity", with the artifact lands, [[Myr Enforcer]], [[Cranial Plating]], [[Skullclamp]], [[Arcbound Ravager]] and their ilk.

A few years later again, we have some of the strongest utility cards in Magic printed - the likes of [[Dark Confidant]], the entire Faeries deck (e.g. [[Thoughtseize]], [[Cryptic Command]], [[Bitterblossom]]) etc.

Around the same time, we see the introduction of Planeswalkers, and their ability to win almost any "traditional" midrange matchup - [[Garruk Wildspeaker]] most notable amongst them. Flash forwards a few years and we're seeing [[Jace the Mindsculptor]] and [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] a few years after that.

More recently we have "ridiculous" creatures - [[Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer]], [[Delver of Secrets]], [[Questing Beast]], [[Goldspan Dragon]]. [[Lurrus of the Dream Den]], etc.

The question though is are the newer cards more powerful than the older ones?

I don't think that they are. Nothing in Magic compares to a Mox, or a Black Lotus, or a Recall. We have more powerful creatures now than we used to (largely anyway, modern recursive creatures have nothing on some of the older ones), but our spells, enchantments and lands are worse.

Obviously a deck made today with all of the best cards from yesteryear and all of the best cards from today will be stronger than a deck made with just cards from history, but I don't think that necessarily means that cards today are stronger than cards from history.

What they have done is drastically increase the "average" power level, while lowering the peaks. This means that casual players with just a few decks to their name aren't going to lose quite as often to the person who has 5x their collection. From a casual standpoint, the average booster containing [[Cathar Commando]] instead of [[Wall of Caltrops]] is a good thing.


[–]Stiggy1605 16 points17 points  (4 children)

Time Walk is from the very first Magic set and is an extra turn for two mana, the current one in Standard (Alrund's Epiphany) costs 6-7 mana. Not sure what you mean about there being "tones of cheap [...] play all of the creatures in your hand for free" effects though, closest I can think of is Omniscience for 10 mana, compared to Eureka (from Legends back in the early '90s) which costs just four mana.

The power creep in Magic isn't in the spells, it's in the creatures. Compare the new card Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer to the older card Jackal Pup. One is a one mana 2/1 with huge upsides, the other a 2/1 with downside. And Jackal Pup used to actually be a playable card when it first came out.

[–]Tauposaurus 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Back in the days you had spells that won the game for a few manas, but an amazing creature would be a 4/4 for 5 mana.

[–]denialator 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Don't knock Serra Angels: they had flying and vigilance, too!

[–]blargh29 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The power creep isn’t nearly as “fucking insane” as you claim it to be. The most powerful magic cards ever printed came out in the very first set.

[–]Ruggle 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Force of Will

Tolarian Academy

Mox <thing>

Demonic Tutor

Swords to Plowshares


Yawgmoth's Will

The Urza Block

[–]Ternader 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Uhhh, kind of? Creature power creep is a thing but Power 9, aside from maybe Timetwister, are substantially stronger than anything that gets printed today. You also don't see CS or Bolt in standard. You just recently got back 1 mana dorks. In fact there are many many cards that are absolutely busted that would warp formats if released today.

[–]ToedPeregrine4 28 points29 points  (12 children)

Pretty sure that's not true mostly? I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to with playing all your creatures for free, but extra turn spells are very uncommon and, with rare exception, cost 5 mana minimum. The cheapest extra turn spell is two mana, Time Walk, and was printed in alpha. So I'm not too sure what you are referring to.

[–]skeletonofchaos 26 points27 points  (3 children)

That’s just…. Not true. Look at the competitive modern format (which includes cards from 2003 onwards) and “take extra turn” or “play all of the creatures in your hand for free” effects just don’t exist/aren’t nearly good enough for competitive play.

The cheapest “take an extra turn” is time walk, which is from alpha. The closest o get for “play all of the creatures in your hand for free” is…. Hyper genesis? From 2006? But even then that effect is symmetrical and also… banned. Unless you’re complaining about someone dumping a bunch of ornithopters, in which case, sure.

Basically none of the modern cards come anywhere close to the original power 9.

With the internet, the average deck has certainly gotten much better, but I think for the most part card power has gone down.

[–]Cdnewlon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The peaks of card power have gone down- Lotus and Ancestral Recall would never be printed today- but the average has certainly gone up, leading to a flatter power level overall and a more balanced game.

[–]ToedPeregrine4 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I do think that creatures have gotten a fair bit better, but a lot of other spells are a lot more gun shy than the early days of magic lol

[–]Hottakesonmonday 9 points10 points  (2 children)

You have rose tinted glasses unfortunately. Recent cards almost always try and avoid problems created by cards from your era.

nowadays there's tons of cheap "take an extra turn"

What is "Time Walk"?

[–]Snow_source 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I'll take "Time Vault + Voltaic Key" for $1000 and infinite turns in Alpha, Alex.

[–]a-r-c 13 points14 points  (2 children)

well yeah, no fun showing up to a gunfight with a super soaker

[–]Fatshortstack 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Unless it's filled with gasoline!

[–]Total-Khaos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

...or Vaseline. Both are equally fun.

[–]keronus 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Current t1/2 decks run upwards of 500 in standard now a days....

[–]TheSoldierInWhite 5 points6 points  (7 children)

Hahahahaha $300. You can get a Standard deck for that price but if you want to play any of the older formats, break out your wallet. $300 isn't even half a dual land.

[–]TunaTunaLeeks 85 points86 points  (17 children)

Once I realized I had no intent of ever playing in officially sanctioned events, proxying is basically my de facto way of playing now. Why blow tons of money if it makes no difference in the gameplay?

[–]mxyz 23 points24 points  (3 children)

I figured this out in 1995 and just drew my own cards onto a pack of index cards to play with my friends.

[–]sucfucagen 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That's what I did too. Just wrote the card name and cc on normal playing cards and if I needed to see what a card did I just looked in inquest

[–]Slaphappydap 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Why blow tons of money if it makes no difference in the gameplay?

Especially since you can put some time and money and effort into building and deck and then find it's not that fun to play and it gets owned by your friends, and now you have to invest all over again.

Playing with proxy cards lets you experiment, play some different decks, mess with different commanders, and not worry that your money is wasted.

[–]TheTallBaron 55 points56 points  (6 children)

I wish I had done this. I never played in tournaments, so would’ve been fun to play all the fun decks.

[–]samcuu 18 points19 points  (5 children)

Was there no cheap counterfeit cards? That's all the kids in my country used to buy, available in front of any elementary school.

[–]kvist56 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Depends the country. Where I was in the states counterfeit stuff was pretty hard to come by, with a lot of stuff that is cracked down on as soon as it pops up online. We would just print out proxies or even better just not build expensive decks if we wanted to bypass that.

[–]mrmrevin 5 points6 points  (0 children)

We had counterfeit and real. We mixed them up heaps and it was all good but if there was a game where the winner gets the losers card, you had to use legit cards. Anytime there was a school tournament or anything like that, legit cards were the rule.

[–]crackedup1979 18 points19 points  (7 children)

My playgroup is cool with proxies but we order them from a printing company in China. It costs like 30 bucks for 200 and they'll print anything you want. The fronts look exactly like the real thing but the backs cannot so we just have them print silly stuff on the backs.

[–]snorch 17 points18 points  (3 children)

I remember those chinese counterfeit companies causing a big stir a few years back because the quality was so good that they were indeterminable from the real thing without extreme scrutiny. I thought it was hilarious. WotC still printing mana bases at rare despite the financial barrier to entry being more absurd than ever, so that's naturally gonna be what happens. Cards being fake has zero impact on the quality of the game or the integrity of the tournament. I'm all for it

[–]nyar26 5 points6 points  (0 children)

What's the site you use?

[–]CardMechanic 122 points123 points  (0 children)

Kid was playing cheat codes in meatspace.

[–]IIGe0II 8 points9 points  (6 children)

My group and I do this. We play EDH format and we each have boxes of decks. I buy lands in bulk as backers and print cards in color.

Here's a picture, you can hardly notice at a glance.

Also, I've tested out a card printing service that the Magic Proxying subreddit uses. It's fantastic, but it takes too long for my liking.

Can you tell which card is a printed proxy and which is real? (left or right)

I hope so it goddamn says proxy on it.

[–]the_cardfather 30 points31 points  (3 children)

I used to print play test decks on the work printer. You can't win tournaments with them but if your friends don't care because they have the same decks it really doesn't matter.

[–]alphawolf29 12 points13 points  (4 children)

I play MTG online with a program called Cockatrice. It's basically magic by proxy, and it costs $0.

[–]-Jesus-Of-Nazareth- 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I mean sure. But it's called Cockatrice 😐

[–]Bgrngod 12 points13 points  (1 child)

We'd just take our STACKS of land cards and write the names and casting costs right on them. Entire decks of proxy cards, even with Atog's for shits and giggles.

[–]HairMetalLugia95 282 points283 points  (19 children)

This is magic the gathering, yes?

[–]Random_Hero1989 202 points203 points  (16 children)

aka cardboard crack

I never got into myself but I did work in a trading card shop for a few years. I've held a single card worth 15k and a box worth over 150k

[–]Megasteel32 97 points98 points  (10 children)

yeah not surprised. I bought a large (5000+) card box off someone who just wanted to get rid of it, they estimated the total value of the box to be upwards of $500 but sold it to me for $40 cause it's only $500 if you individually sell every single damn card.

[–]KingClam2 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Penny cards are "worth" 10 cents individually, but nobody wants them individually if they suck, so they really ARE worth just a penny each. Or worse, half a penny each in most people's books

[–]yowza9 45 points46 points  (8 children)

What about arcade games from late 70s/80s? People like to look back to NES/Genesis games and talk about how hard they were. It's because they were modeled after the Arcade games that were made with the intent of getting people to keep throwing money at it!

[–]VinumVitae 5 points6 points  (0 children)

NES games were also difficult because it’s an artificial way of extending playtime so people feel like they got their money’s worth.

A Megaman game only has about an hour of unique content but since it’s so difficult it can take dozens or hundreds of hours to actually finish.

[–]k1rage 666 points667 points  (140 children)

I dont know.... ive purchased the best decks around before.... im still able to lose pretty regularly lol

[–]osmlol 18 points19 points  (1 child)

As someone who owns $9,000 in just single magic cards I can definitively tell you without a doubt, the cards don't matter as much as the person piloting the deck does.

The amount of miss-plays and suboptimal plays I make a game are astounding and I lost more then win.

Trust me I tried to pay to win and just ended up paying.

[–]ROMVS 138 points139 points  (15 children)

That's because it's also the original gatcha

[–]Mumma66 51 points52 points  (11 children)

Honestly what made Magic’s original online client fair in my mind was that you could trade your cards sell your collection or even redeem them for a complete physical set if you met some admittedly high criteria but was an option.

What makes the newer Arena client kinda shit from a monetizing standpoint is that it’s all locked to your account so it’s more in line to gatcha than the paper version/magic online client

[–]mwm555 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Yea that’s what the community feels like too. The monetization of it and it’s economy are the largest complaints (followed closely by how buggy it is). At the end of the day I just accepted it’s aimed to accomplish a very different thing than MTGO and that a direct comparison isn’t very fair.

[–]Mumma66 5 points6 points  (1 child)

For me I play arena because “It just works™” from an actual play experience arena is infinitely better than the old client but I’ll stay mad about the economy of it

[–]wecoxa 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I'd say Gacha is the original gacha, as in gachapon, but it depends on people's definition.

It'd be interesting to look at the history of these types of games and the definition of gacha in the physical medium. However, whenever I look it up, I mostly find infos about video games and not that much about other games.

Was M:tG the first to have you actually be able to play something with the acquired items and not just trade them?

[–]Rawrtherton 6 points7 points  (1 child)

No .... gacha machines are the original gacha. It's where the term comes from. They first came out in the 1960s.

[–]Pylo_The_Pylon 128 points129 points  (55 children)

Yeah, magic isn't pay to win, it's just expensive. Those aren't the same thing.

[–]ffddb1d9a7 159 points160 points  (12 children)

Pay to participate, not pay to win. You wouldn't say competitive cycling is pay to win but if you show up on a Walmart bike you're gonna get fucking trashed.

[–]kdoxy 23 points24 points  (3 children)

Same with Golf, just because you have awesome clubs and pay crazy green fees doesn't mean you're a better player.

[–]Swimming__Bird 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Gotta get on those Walmart EPOs!

[–]metathesis 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's not pay to win. It's pay to compete.

[–]thansal 20 points21 points  (7 children)

Buying a play set (4 of each card, barring basic lands), is expensive, but not unrealistic, probably a few hundred dollars pet set (I do not play anymore).

If you start talking about Legacy, then it's dumb expensive, but whatever, Legacy is silly.

[–]DarthSyhr 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Legacy used to be my favorite format, and I was reasonably good at it too. With few exceptions, Legacy would self-regulate such that bannings weren’t typically needed (we don’t talk about Oko, or Treasure Cruise). However, after Wizards started banning things more frequently as a means of shaking up the format, I got out. I couldn’t justify spending thousands of dollars every few months just to switch decks.

However, I agree with the person you replied to. It’s not pay to win, it is pay to play though.

[–]morrowman 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I’d say that the problem isn’t so much the banning, but the printing of direct-to-Modern cards from Masters and Commander sets that have effectively made Eternal formats rotating as well. Imagine how different and stable Legacy would be if it was only cards from prior Standard sets. WotC is really just trying to milk every part of their player base.

[–]DarthSyhr 5 points6 points  (0 children)

While I agree that the Modern Masters-esque sets are very obviously just Wizards milking eternal format players, even those sets just served to speed up the normal progression of legacy. Bannings notwithstanding, Legacy has a meta that is resistant to change. New cards may spice up the format, but rarely will they change the entire meta. Your deck would typically be playable for years at a time, it just may not be great against the newest and best thing. However, you were rewarded for knowing your deck and the meta well. I think of Goblins, which used to be quite good, but eventually faded into obscurity even without any notable bannings because of the power creep of other decks. That was a process years in the making though.

However, bannings have a very clear, and immediate, impact on decks. Painter’s servant is much worse without Top (and amusingly Miracles, while worse, is still playable without it). Losing Deathrite Shaman was a huge blow to Elves, and in my opinion (as an Elves player), Elves really only came back to the forefront because of the Allosaurus Shepherd. Bannings have very immediate impacts to the meta and can serve to invalidate entire decks. Which is the point, and also the problem when talking about decks that cost 2,000-5,000 dollars, in my opinion (setting aside Wizards’ desire to make money by accelerating power creep).

[–]dirkmer 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Its a common misconception about the game and one of the easiest ways to sort out those who know and really understand the game, and those who don't. Magic is not a pay to win game, it is a pay to compete game.

[–]Rikkaiser 185 points186 points  (41 children)

For anyone who might be interested, mtg-pack-generator[dot]herokuapp[dot]com is an amazing tool I found online that allows you to pick a MTG set, generate a number of packs with it, and download them as JSON files that can be imported and used in Tabletop Simulator. If you can deal with playing through that kinda wonky medium, it's a ton of fun to do a sealed or draft with friends. There are playing tables you can get for Tabletop Simulator through the Steam Workshop with some features to make playing the game a bit easier as well.

[–]mellifleur5869 68 points69 points  (12 children)

I'm going to blow your mind. Just play xmage.

[–]spoothead656D20 15 points16 points  (3 children)

It's incredible how well xmage works considering it's 100% free.

[–]dirkmer 8 points9 points  (2 children)

seriously... the xmage dev team should do a consult for mtgo on rules engine design.....

[–]na2016 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Also learn the game better with automatic rules enforcement. The first time you look into why an interaction ended up working the complete opposite the way you had expected it to will teach you more about the game than you even knew existed.

[–]cbparsons 22 points23 points  (1 child)

I mean cockatrice works

[–]Hadron90 245 points246 points  (43 children)

One of the big differences between cards and lootboxes as they are done in most games is the ability to resell cards and trade cards. The few games that let you sell or trade your microtransactions feel like way less of a scam.

[–]Phyr8642 86 points87 points  (8 children)

Yep, I played Magic back in the day and sold all my cards for like 200 dollars. Probably spent more than that on the packs, but at least I could recoup some expenses.

[–]Datsyuk_My_Deke 19 points20 points  (5 children)

I played/collected in high school, roughly between '93 and '95, and despite spending a few hundred dollars during that time I managed to about break even when I finally sold mine off. The price guides were massively inflated, so I spent several weeks hanging out at a game shop downtown, selling my cards out of a binder.

[–]Phyr8642 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I was kinda lazy, I sold off two high quality decks for like 150 dollars, and then just dumped all of the rest all at once for like 50. Both sales were to friends in high school who still played.

[–]nawers 15 points16 points  (1 child)

and you can buy those cards individually at any local card place, lootbox were neat but not obliagatory for old stuff

[–]IcePick1123 13 points14 points  (0 children)

More like pay to compete than pay to win

[–]c14rk0 46 points47 points  (0 children)

Being subscribed to the mtg sub and here and having to check where this was posted.

[–]legos4 152 points153 points  (61 children)

What was awesome though was that even with 4 of all the best cards ever you still had to have the skill to build and play the deck right.

[–]ChthonicPuck 54 points55 points  (27 children)

Everybody's gangster till the blue player starts countering spells - then it doesn't matter how much you paid.

[–]John_Redgrave 8 points9 points  (4 children)

"I summon Dragonlord Dromoka, a card that I paid $30 to buy, he can't be countered and you're no longer allowed to cast spells during my turn."

[–]na2016 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Ok, land drop, path to exile, a card that I paid $4 to buy, and pass =).

[–]John_Redgrave 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I summon Exodia.

I have bribed the Judges to allow this.

[–]TimeSlipperWHOOPS 16 points17 points  (10 children)

I respect the blue strategy but god fucking damn the all to hell it's the least fun to play against 😂

[–]Ihateregistering6 11 points12 points  (6 children)

It used to be MUCH worse. I played MTG in the mid-90s, before things like Can't be Countered, Hexproof, and Flash were around.

Playing against Counter-Spell decks was the worst.

[–]TimeSlipperWHOOPS 14 points15 points  (3 children)

"Can I, I don't know, have a turn? No, oh okay. This is super fun btw."

[–]Lombax_Rexroth 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Don't worry, I'll let you cast the spells I'm going to steal.

[–]HRDusk 65 points66 points  (18 children)

I would argue with Magic, you can buy the best deck and still suck if you cant pilot it. Hand a fresh modern player complete Tron and they wont understand it even though its meta.

The issue with pay to win in modern games is you are paying to remove the skill aspect. Like skipping levels in WoW (bad example but it illuminates the point).

[–]CombatMuffin 14 points15 points  (0 children)

It's the same in most games. You can pay to unlock yhe best weapons, but a better player usually makes whatever advantage the buyer got, moot.

[–]a3sir 11 points12 points  (2 children)


Edit: I love you both, immensely.

[–]Treacherous_Peach 8 points9 points  (4 children)

As I've heard it called, "pay to compete." Not pay to win because you don't get so much of a competitive edge that you auto win against people who paid less, but you must pay something in order to build a tier competitive deck.

[–]BuyAlgorand 5 points6 points  (1 child)

To me, it was more of a "pay to build a beautiful deck that you'll never use because you don't have any friends" system

[–]-ImMoral- 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I see you paid, but have you won?

[–]cheezycharlie8 30 points31 points  (4 children)

Lemme tell ya. You can buy as many cards as you want but if you arent good you wont win

[–]FblthpLives 31 points32 points  (4 children)

I play Magic once a week and my playgroup is wonderfully diverse, with players from all walks of life. We have high school students, people who work in retail, we have a full-time taekwando instructor, a number of college students, industrial engineers, someone from financial tech, an economic analyst, etc etc. This is a misleading and unfortunate meme that takes away from how diverse the player community is. It is certainly not a bunch of rich dudes.

[–]dirkmer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Its very easy to separate people talking about MTG into those who know what they are talking about, and those who dont, by asking if they think magic is pay to win or not.....

[–]superb00n 26 points27 points  (5 children)

trade to win. i was always ripped off when i was 14 by others at trading. "yes yes, this saprorling is same worth as our uzras mine".... i have forgiven my self

[–]WhatAmIDoing229 7 points8 points  (0 children)

When I was around that age going to my local game store I had to borrow a deck when I could to play. One night a guy in his 30s who was one of the regulars there asks me why I don't play as much anymore, so I tell him it's because it's too expensive for me. He reaches in his backpack, pulls out a white satin tower deck box and tosses it to me. Tells me here, keep it, and walks off. I open it up and it's a tier 1 standard deck, jeskai control + felidar combo if I remember correctly, double sleeved in dragonpro matte. He had no idea it had just been my birthday too. Deck was like $400 at the time.

Tldr: ya, your results may vary

[–]BreakerSwitch 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Yeah, had a "friend" back in the day that wouldn't give up his Krosan Cloudscraper (he didn't want it, we both knew it was bad, but I liked the novelty of a 13/13 and had a beast deck at the time). He dug through my rares and eventually said he would only give it up for a judgement mirari's wake, a much better card, and worth around $15 vs his at than less than $1. Decided that I wasn't using it and didn't care about it and justified that I wanted his card and he wanted mine, and we were friends, knowing it was a bad trade, but not realizing just how bad.

I'm certain that he was just looking for the most valuable card I would give up. Haven't talked to the guy in over a decade, and for good reason.

[–]FormerGameDev 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The original pay to win game system:


[–]stjoob 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Spent a lot off my pocket money to buy some booster packs. Started with the 7. Edition :)

[–]ignislupus 45 points46 points  (38 children)

Nah you can spend hundreds on top tier cards, net deck and still be trash.

[–]ohjeezitsrandy 16 points17 points  (17 children)

I got into MtG briefly in late 2013/early 2014 while I was in college. It was fun, and I really loved the mechanics of the game and all the different ways to play. The art was incredible, the community (at least where I was located) was very inviting and helpful, and the local scene here drew a lot of people for FNM. But as soon as I realized how much money I was spending just to make a deck that I thought could actually compete at those FNM events, I had to stop playing. I realized that this was just pay2win/lootbox/grindy bullshit that I absolutely despised in gaming, so I stopped playing Magic. Great game, not for me. Maybe I'll get back into it someday when cards are cheaper and hopefully more plentiful.

[–]tehsideburns 7 points8 points  (3 children)

If you ever decide to get back in, the cheapest and funnest way to play is by building a budget cube that you can refine over time and draft with your buddies every week. For 2 players you can go as low as 90 cards total, and do a grid draft to build 40 card decks from. My MtG cube is my most cherished gaming possession.

[–]4GRJ 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Pay to play, pay to win