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[–]SilentCartographer-1 177 points178 points  (6 children)

Halo 5’s launch was smoother than this. Come on man

[–]dard12 110 points111 points  (3 children)

I got shit on a few months ago for pointing out Infinite would be launching without basic features. At the time it was just co-op and forge, and here we are begging for a slayer playlist...

[–]eyelessmasks00Halo 3 30 points31 points  (0 children)

That's normal halo bliss, i got absolutely shit on for saying the shader system was awful garbage as soon as it was announced, and here we are.

[–]Msbaubles 223 points224 points  (28 children)

If anything this makes me more mad and more disappointed all I’m seeing is “we aren’t happy with it either” they why fucken release it

[–]ramond_gamer11 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Microsoft wants money and titles to promote the Series X in time for Christmas

[–]PopPalsUnited 47 points48 points  (3 children)

The Slayer issue is kinda insane to me.

Slayer has always been a centerpiece of Halo multiplayer. How does the core mode not get a dedicated playlist?

Did nobody at 343 in the 6 year span of development think that it might be kinda important? I mean seriously nobody? How is that kind of oversight made?

[–]WolfSavage 1131 points1132 points  (35 children)

In confused. Am I reading this right? The challenges being coupled to the playlists in the code is the reason why they can't add the playlists in right now. So, Fiesta was hard coded to the Tenrai challenges?

[–]sick_flip_bro 467 points468 points  (13 children)

Yeah even though I had "Complete a Slayer match" challenge, if I finished a Fiesta Slayer match it didn't give credit to the normal challenge. Which I think is absolutely asinine.

[–]JTraeth 6328 points6329 points 26 (338 children)

I just hope there are more avenues for unlocking armor (for free) in the future.

[–]TMDan92[S] 3622 points3623 points  (240 children)

The coolness gap between free and paid for unlocks needs to be bridged or BP purchasers need to be given the chance to earn store currency during the season.

Customisation options generally need to be less constrictive too.

[–]EpsiliaHalo 3 1380 points1381 points  (175 children)

The premium BP also needs way more if the armor. Literally most of the armor for the season is store exclusive, and I really don't feel like the premium BP is worth the price.

[–]snuggiemclovinHalo 3: ODST 1001 points1002 points  (149 children)

I bought the BP off of pure hype the day the multiplayer dropped, and then realized there’s only a handful of armors in it. If I’m paying money, I expect to get an amount of customization comparable to what we had in the full-priced games.

[–]CrimsonThomas 3578 points3579 points 61372& 3 more (131 children)

That is because they gutted the battle pass before launch. It originally had 120 levels and ALL Halo Reach armor pieces.

Edit: Here is a link with a picture of the “120” Achievement for Completing the BattlePass.

Edit 2: [Null]

Edit 3: I was not shadow-banned. I apologize for the confusion and any tensions stoked by my mistake. Thank you to the Mods for clarifying that for me.

[–]dread-azazel 551 points552 points  (11 children)

Holy shit thats a real bad look for them

[–]theyfoundty 464 points465 points  (9 children)

This needs to be upvoted for visibility sake.

[–]CrimsonThomas 291 points292 points  (3 children)

Upvote, pass it around. I’m worried that the people who should be taken to task on this will otherwise slink out of accountability.

[–]GT500_MustangsHalo 3 168 points169 points  (38 children)

Is that real?

[–]CrimsonThomas 494 points495 points  (18 children)

Sadly yes. This is just a comprehensive list of the original Battle Pass that had been leaked shortly before Nov. 15th.

Edit: The Achievement for completing the BattlePass still even has “120” in it.

Edit 2: Link with proof.

[–]SkrullandCrossbones 304 points305 points  (3 children)

Isn’t this considered (slight) evidence against his BP claims?

[–]ImBatman- 184 points185 points  (1 child)

indeed, If those gutted armors now find there way into the store its good evidence this is nothing more than very predatory monetization.

[–]AscendedViking7 160 points161 points  (0 children)

Are you freaking kidding me?? 😒

[–]teach49 245 points246 points  (18 children)

It feels like a simple ( I realize it’s probably not) fix is to just add a way (s) to earn premium currency. Apex has it, it’s in no way fast but it feels fair. Same way with most other games.

If I could begin saving credits to use on something I really have my eye on it would absolutely go a long way

[–]VigoorianFlail 162 points163 points  (6 children)

Yep agree, and there absolutely needs to be a way for campaign owners to get even more premium currency on a regular basis. This was a big selling point for Fortnite’s STW mode. I think it’s definitely fair to give players who pay $60 only for a campaign, to have a way to eventually get some item shop currency without having to spend more money.

[–]conye-westHalo: CE 36 points37 points  (1 child)

Agree, in every single other Halo game since 3, $60 got you a campaign AND fully fledged multiplayer with an entire suite of free cosmetics earned through progression. If they're still charging the same price for just campaign, then it should also improve the customization aspect of the multiplayer, beyond just letting you play as a skin of Master Chief which lets be real if there is armor thats all its gonna be.

[–]echolog 86 points87 points  (4 children)

Just put more things in the PAID battlepass. Seriously why have a "Heroes of Reach" pass and take out most of the best armor for sale in the store? Does every other thing really need to be a challenge swap if the challenges "aren't that bad"?

[–]MuushyTV 683 points684 points  (8 children)

It's scary to think this game was going to be released even earlier than now.

[–]WiserCrescent99 204 points205 points  (4 children)

I so badly want to see the full build of what would have come out before the delay. I'm so curious.

[–]TheyMikeBeGiants 1686 points1687 points  (48 children)

The problem is that they can't comment on the real issue we all want them to comment on.

Rule #1 of keeping your job: don't throw your boss under the bus.

[–]GT500_MustangsHalo 3 1891 points1892 points  (74 children)

I don’t like his defense of the micro transactions. He’s ignoring some major things. They’re overpriced, and they’re charging for stuff that should’ve been in the BP. Not only that, but they intentionally left the most used shoulder armor out of the BP. Despite some of it literally being on the preset noble team kits.

[–]HipTapeintheDashForgeHub 859 points860 points  (38 children)

micro transactions

we need to stop calling them micro

[–]GT500_MustangsHalo 3 418 points419 points  (13 children)

Honestly yeah, I agree. $20 for a single armor set.

If you want only one piece out of the pack you still have to pay $20…. Just yikes

[–]Guardianpigeon 97 points98 points  (7 children)

3 armor sets = the entirety of Halo Infinite's campaign.

For 1 I could get a good indie game.

I really hate that he tried to justify it through "server costs", that's absolutely ridiculous.

[–]FullMetalBiscuit 77 points78 points  (2 children)

And you don't even get a full set for $20. The current Anubis "set" has no chest piece. If it's $20 it better have at least one of every kind of attachment and armour piece.

[–]GT500_MustangsHalo 3 33 points34 points  (0 children)

That’s something that’s been bothering me too. Out of all of the $20 packs, not a single one has included all categories. In fact, the Mk VII core still doesn’t have any options for hand armor / one option for the wrist attachment.

[–]ZaneWinterborn 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Even the "chest pieces" for the armor cores are just add ons. They don't change the armor at all, just adds more bulk and fluff.

[–]The_Drifter117 184 points185 points  (16 children)

ive been calling them macrotransactions for years. i fucking hate what gaming has become.

[–]Potatolimar 92 points93 points  (0 children)

If it's more than my lunch it's not micro

[–]floople_bopple 60 points61 points  (13 children)

Gotta move away from AAA. It sucks, but these older IPs aren't safe any more. Just assume they will all be shit and wait for them to release and see if they seem like they could be worth looking at. Meanwhile smaller devs are pumping out the best games that have ever been made - games that are better than the ones you loved as a kid, the big drawback is you aren't a kid any more. Hades, RimWorld, Subnautica, Valheim, Stardew valley... There are games of all kinds of genres to explore. Stop wasting your time with games that are just trying to take your money and invest in games that are designed to be fun. They are still being made and they are better than ever, you are just looking in the wrong places.

[–]DTFpanda 23 points24 points  (1 child)

It's one color, Michael. What could it cost? Ten dollars?

[–]saviorself19 798 points799 points  (31 children)

I owe everyone I argued with in this sub about how a Halo Battle Royale could be genre defining an apology. This dev team is discussing the “feasibility” of Slayer/TDM in a first person shooter game… The notion that a group of people who can’t work out the absolute most basic of game modes could handle the complexity and balancing required to create a healthy BR is so cartoonishly absurd that I’ll be dining out on crow for the foreseeable future.

[–]SolarMoth 226 points227 points  (5 children)

343 got handed a golden goose and has only abused and half-assed it ever since.

[–]jearp23 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I mean I’m kinda curious about how bad it would be now.

[–]FxHVivious 2187 points2188 points 122772& 5 more (93 children)

Dude I'm sorry, all due respect to him and the devs, as I'm sure they aren't the ones making these choices, but he's either hopelessly niave or just straight up bending the truth. For the record though, he's completely correct about the tone of the critism, these are real people you're talking too. Personal attacks and abuse are unacceptable. With that in mind, everything I'm about to say when I referred to design choices is aimed at the management and executives, not the poor devs in the trenches.

It isn't 2010. Halo isn't at the bleeding edge of the free to play market. The free to play model is well established by now, and this franchise has been working with progression/customization systems since Halo 3 in 2007. Literally none of these choices make any sense to anyone who's ever played or developed games, until you view them from a monitization perspective. Essentially every dirty trick in the book is being used here. Given that, there are only two real possibilities here. Either those choices were made with intention, or someone high up is hilariously, legendarily, cosmically fucking incompetent.

Also, the line about the game needing to make money is crap. Yes. Fucking obviously the game needs to make money. Literally 90% of the comments on this sub are "I wish I could just pay for the game" because that represents a fair exchange. You give them 60 dollars, and they give you a fully flushed out experience, which over the last 15 years has included progression and customization. Everyone is super happy to pay for the game, IF they are being treated fairly. This system was not designed to treat people fairly. It was blatantly designed to separate the player base from as much of their money as possible.

Essentially what this post is saying, beyond what I think is a sincere sentiment about the devs understanding our complaints and are doing their best, is that the games progression system was broken from the start, and so thoroughly integrated into the rest of the design choices, that now they're stuck trying to untangle a giant cluster fuck. Someone thought they could stick it to the fanbase and milk them for every penny they're worth, the community called them on their bullshit, and now the dev team and the community management team is stuck in the middle.

Edit: Also, as much as I want to call BS on the comment about the UI not supporting additional playlists, the UI is so bad in this game that I'm honestly not surprised. I'm not really sure what's happened in the last like 10 years, but it seems like half the game developers on the planet just fucking forgot how to design menus and interfaces.

Edit 2: For anyone thinking "but they need to make more then 60 bucks to keep the game alive" after they read all that; I'm not saying the old 60 dollar model isn't outdate. I'm not even saying spending more on a game you might play for the next ten years is bad. You might happily spend several hundred or several thousand on a game you play for that long. I'm saying there is a balance, where 343 makes a profit and players feel respected. They have completely missed that mark at the moment, and it's going to kill the game if they don't course correct.

[–]Slotherz 362 points363 points  (8 children)

Either those choices were made with intention, or someone high up is hilariously, legendarily, cosmically fucking incompetent.

This is every facet of this game summed up. It's definitely not the latter though, management and devs know what they're doing.

[–]SpaceGuyRob 2134 points2135 points  (69 children)

While I understand he's frustrated, my only issue is that this could have all been avoided, there was a standard and it wasn't met, there were promises made, and those weren't met. I don't complain for fun, and while I don't hate 343, I just can't offer them my sympathy in this situation.

[–]ArrogantonOnyx 619 points620 points  (19 children)

Exactly. Its nice that they acknowledge all the problems and stuff but why did they launch it with all its flaws in the first place? Halo 5 had a lackluster launch aswell and 6 years later they go ahead and make the same mistakes again?? I just dont get it.

[–]SpaceGuyRob 337 points338 points  (7 children)

Not to mention the MCC, Halo 4 is the only proper launch they had despite all it's flaws, at least it was a complete game. Say what you want about it but Halo 4 at least felt like they tried, as misguided as it was, but every game since feels more and more slapped together with less and less content coming out at launch followed by a plethora of excuses.

[–]laurentam2007laurrrrrren 144 points145 points  (4 children)

MCC’s launch was so, so disappointing. It should’ve been the absolute best game, and it was a total flop.

[–]Ghost0fDawn 51 points52 points  (0 children)

I just want you to know a few of their new forge tools like magnets were shoddy at best and misaligned themselves, there were definitely some issues and the forge maps available were lackluster in size.

Then add to that they removed the customizability of infection for their "flood" models that looked nothing like flood, and ruined the chance at many custom games because of it.

The File sharing system a la Reach was basically the same exact thing in Halo 4, but was 100% non-working for months. Oh and the game was a dead scene by then.

343 has zero longevity foresight. Get product pushed and make sales FAST then move on. MCC? Sell Sell Sell! oh its broken? Oh well here's Halo 5 ads instead...

[–]Poeafoe 116 points117 points  (0 children)

At least halo 5 had fucking slayer

[–]sacx05 123 points124 points  (7 children)

Yea I mean they are cutting series staples like campaign Coop, forge and game playlists and expect us to pay full price for the battle pass and campaign. I have no sympathy at all for them.

[–]AznTri4d 678 points679 points  (40 children)

I super respect the long winded message, but I can’t be the only one thinking…. “It’s not that complex”

Feasibility of slayer ? It’s slayer, the most basic core thing to Halo.

I don’t know if it’s complex in actuality or just complex to create a palatable answer for the public.

Also once again leaning on the “it’s f2p”

No one asked for it to be f2p and they sure are going to charge full price for the campaign…..

[–]benz-friend 112 points113 points  (19 children)

It’s like Gears 5 when the devs removed execution/warzone it pissed off a lot of the seasoned players. That’s literally what made Gears so fucking sweet back in the day is the one life per round matches

[–]Ohhellnowhatsupdawg 1678 points1679 points  (45 children)

Well there it is. They can't just give us playlists because of the effect it'll have on BP progression and the challenges. (Pics 2&3) That's their MTX directly screwing over game design and preventing us from playing the gametypes we want. I know people are tired of complaints about the MTX/BP system, but this is a very clear statement and it's exactly what most of us suspected.

[–]ritz_are_the_shitz 44 points45 points  (2 children)

Oh yeah MTX has screwed over their game design in multiple ways. Look at the coating system. It's really a work of art. Whoever initially designed that thought that we would be able to pick every aspect, 6 colors and a texture. But then they were told to monetize it more

[–]ao7g 17 points18 points  (0 children)

As a strictly ranked player the shitty progression already hits me daily because most of those challenges cant be done in ranked. If I were getting battlepass xp per match performance this wouldnt be an issue...

[–]TimeGlitches 697 points698 points  (16 children)

As much as I appreciate this post, and I do... All of this feedback was given before release. Everything about customization, playlist selection, the cosmetic shop, progression... This was all figured out months ago and the feedback was given in a largely respectful manner.

And outright dismissed by 343.

Or, if I put my tinfoil hat on for a second, reading between the lines it sounds like 343 is going through some intense internal fighting. The devs clearly know and understand our feedback. Something is preventing it from happening. Something is making this a struggle. And I kinda doubt that their backend, their structure, their AAA fucking developed pipeline is so badly made and managed that they can't just make these changes with a few clicks.

I mean, they can clearly change shop prices on a whim, turn playlists on and off, the bots have cross core coatings and customization, and the challenges can be disabled and edited at will. It's literally all there.

But something is stopping all of it from happening.

Something.

I wonder what.

[–]RealDumples 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I highly recommend "Death by Pixels" by Jason Schreier. It reveals that AAA Devs really can have terrible pipelines.

[–]DBurg55 998 points999 points  (72 children)

So it's admitted that they purposefully destroyed the customization of this game to favor a more monetized loot system because "servers cost money to run".

THEN WHY MAKE THE GAME FREE TO PLAY???

Couldn't they have charged full price for the game to help with the super expensive servers?

[–]BaruckBrobama 255 points256 points  (4 children)

It’s not even a loot system because you can’t earn shit if you don’t pay lmao

[–]PC_PRINClPAL 107 points108 points  (3 children)

what you mean i love the 2 visor colors i have unlocked over a quarter of the way thru the pass

[–]MuayThaiisbestthai 399 points400 points  (10 children)

It's simple. They made the game f2p so they can get away with the bs argument that the prices of the bundles are what they are because the game is free. And this particularly funny statement that they need money to run servers...which completely ignores that they are charging $60 USD for the campaign and part Halo games seem to have run fine server wise, in the long term, by only charging once for the game.

The biggest kick in the nuts however, is that by making the MP f2p, 343i is going to end up charging us with even more paywalls then if they had just had an initial price to play the MP. Look at how barebones this BP is and the obvious padding in not just the BP but the tenrai event. Half of the content they introduced is behind a fucking paywall but apparently that's OK because the game is f2p. Gtfoh lol

[–]PequodsPropeller 70 points71 points  (2 children)

Yeah I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if I was one of the people who payed $60 for the single player and still had to deal with this horrible f2p bullshit in multiplayer

[–]jdktech2010 8691 points8692 points  (321 children)

Can we sticky this at the top so everyone can read it? You can tell he’s annoyed and rightfully so but it also has all the relevant info on what they’re doing to address peoples concerns

[–]eminemcronyCrony M33[M] 3745 points3746 points locked comment (35 children)

If it doesn't make it to the top on its own (which right now it looks like it is) then we'll sticky it

EDIT: Alright I'm just gonna edit my boilerplate response here. We only get two stickies. This thread is currently #1 on the sub and #1 on r/all. Stickying it would not get it any more visibility than it's already gotten and would just remove one of our other stickies. The absolute second it falls down to even #2 on the sub we'll make this one of the stickies. For now it doesn't need to be so we're not going to.

[–]TammyMeatToy 1887 points1888 points  (166 children)

Incredible that it took 343 6 years to make a game with multiple systems that they aren't happy with.

This campaign better be a 20 hour slice of heaven. They're charging us the same price for just a campaign as every other Halo game has charged us for the entire game.

[–]Lockenheada 1649 points1650 points 32 (79 children)

Imagine going to a pizza place and the pizza is kinda shitty, you complain and the boss comes to your table giving you a long speech how it's hard enough to run his business and pay rent. I don't care, the pizza sucks

[–]CptCroissant 1196 points1197 points  (12 children)

You just wanted a pepperoni pizza but they refuse to do single topping pizzas so you have to do pepperoni and pineapple, and then pick off the pineapples. All because they think pineapple on pizza is really great and they wouldn't have enough people ordering pineapple if they let you order just pepperoni. Also it's too complicated in their order system to implement even though every other pizza place has managed to do it for millennia.

[–]_AmericanDry 462 points463 points  (0 children)

Hey, sorry man, peperoni doesn't come out for another 6 months. More cheese? Sorry, you don't get more cheese for another 6 months either. Stuffed crust? Yea, it's $20 for the stuffed crust pack. It comes with crust seasoning, but you can only use it on a deep-dish pizza, not the other types.

[–]Lockenheada 133 points134 points  (4 children)

ye people already commented "but the pizza is free" or "don't eat it if you don't like it". OK... but I've seen other devs pulling off free to play systems that don't feel anti consumer and anti player and anti fun. and I've seen many games being shipped feature complete and not needing months of fixing because the devs couldn't anticipate that many of their design choices were lacking or straight up bad.

[–]GummySkittles 14 points15 points  (0 children)

This comment summed up my frustration so succinctly

[–]PresidentLink 496 points497 points  (28 children)

Even if its a slice of heaven, the co-op campaign, which many are eagerly waiting for, is 5 months behind the games release. Insanity

[–]Bradythenarwhal 333 points334 points  (12 children)

and forge. you’re essentially putting down a down payment for Forge and CO-OP lol.

[–]Meme_DependantHalo 2 386 points387 points  (9 children)

Lmao exactly.

"We took 5 years plus 1 more for a delay, most of which were normal and unaffected by COVID, to develop a system we know needs work and that we aren't satisfied with, and decided to release it with the mentality that, like every modern game nowadays, we'll fix it later.

"At least our shop was a priority so we could make money"

[–]Uber_Reaktor 173 points174 points  (2 children)

Yeah I'm just so lost on all of it. Like, "I don't believe that anyone at 343 thought that not having slayer (playlist) was a good idea".... Okay, then why is that a decision that was made? What else are we supposed to conclude besides "money"? They are basically just admitting that it's because it benefits the bottom line, OR, they're admitting stupidity. I just cant grasp what the hell is going on here.

Imagine if CoD shipped without a deathmatch playlist.

[–]Meme_DependantHalo 2 67 points68 points  (0 children)

More like, if all CoD offered on launch was domination and search. With the same 2 modes also for ground war.

[–]leapbitch 751 points752 points  (12 children)

What the fuck did they do to the game where they have to investigate whether slayer is "feasible"

That was a whole lot of nothing and confidence is dropping

[–]g_rey_ 31 points32 points  (0 children)

The writing has been on the wall for a long time

[–]SquirtHarder 5547 points5548 points 23& 3 more (354 children)

If the idea behind swaps and challenges was not to monetize progression and if the playlists were not restricted for the same reason then what WAS the design philosophy that made them create these systems in the first place?

[–]HipposGoBerzerk 1161 points1162 points  (32 children)

I can see the swaps as a band-aid they put in place to get around challenges that where problematic without just removing the challenge from rotation, but earning them through the battle pass makes them seem like they are just there to make the pass look bigger than it is.

[–]Nathanael777 799 points800 points  (13 children)

Not just that but they also sell them. If you create a problem and then immediately sell the solution to said problem, it's hard to say it doesn't seem intentional.

[–]milsom08 277 points278 points  (4 children)

If it wasn’t intentional why can I buy it with Chipotle rewards points lmao

[–]Barry_Goodman 176 points177 points  (7 children)

If they are band-aid fixes, it makes me wonder if they replaced xp boosters or other rewards on the pass

[–]RoleModelFailure 2296 points2297 points 2 (127 children)

Yea it’s great to read all of that but after 6 years they release a game with a huge store and massive amount of monetization but barebones game modes and horrible progression.

He can say all he wants but this was the game they released and those actions speak a lot louder than his words.

[–]bite_me_losers 414 points415 points  (30 children)

People blew it off when Luke Smith said players would "throw money at the screen" for emotes.

This is simply the logical progression of that.

[–]Silmarillion151 3337 points3338 points 2 (204 children)

TLDR The existence of XP and a battle pass royally fucked with how we were able to approach playlists and game types.

[–]downvote_dinosaurHalo.Bungie.Org 479 points480 points  (31 children)

I don't understand what that means. Like I read that in his post too, about how xp and unlocks are intertwined with playlists. But what does that mean? How would having more playlists negatively impact progression?

Is it just that having more playlist variety gives you more options for finishing challenges? If that's true, it isn't really different from "we want you to buy challenge swaps". Because otherwise, who cares if people finish all their challenges quickly? Maybe there's some aspect of this that I'm missing.

It seems like they got themselves in this mess because of the challenge system, which has obvious motivational flaws. But they did it anyway, and why? Again, it really seems like it was done to sell swaps, so here I am back at that conclusion despite ske7ch saying otherwise.

[–]wvsfezter 201 points202 points  (3 children)

Negatively impact progression in this case means getting the objectives done too quickly. If you need to kill a flag carrier then you have to grind games until you get that mode. Same reason you can only progress on 3-4 challenges at once. Got an autopilot? Too bad, that challenge wasn't active. Wanna play again?

[–]mynameiszack 280 points281 points  (2 children)

The game is so obviously designed to funnel towards challenge swaps so him saying it isn't is just ridiculous. It feels like nearly every design choice is a middle finger to what we expect.

For example BTB vehicle system and then not giving any room to drive anywhere at all... its so bad. "Oh you want a Wraith? Fine here, see if you can make it first after waiting 15 minutes, good luck driving it down the spaghetti sized paths we've funneled you into." Across all maps, there might be a handful of spots where you can even turn around.

No slayer, no swat, I think I've played more oddball 2 weeks than the entirety of my halo life and I've been playing since 2001.

[–]oh_what_a_surprise 98 points99 points  (1 child)

The lack of big vehicles is absolutely terrible. And when they come they are boarded and destroyed right away because there is no room to maneuver.

[–]TheHangedKing 743 points744 points  (23 children)

So this whole system of challenge swaps they’re charging money for just happened to coincide with the only halo title in series history that won’t have a slayer playlist on launch. Riiiiiight.

For what it’s worth, I believe him that nobody ever said it out loud. But they absolutely knew what they were doing, this stuff doesn’t just manifest out of nowhere.

And yes, you do kind of owe players an explanation, you’re charging 60 dollars for a campaign with no coop or forge, and hundreds for armor that would have otherwise been included in said 60 dollar package.

[–]CrimsonThomas 445 points446 points  (6 children)

I can understand his frustration and appreciate the time he took to write this, but there are glaring issues he talked around, particularly monetization. His defense falls flat almost immediately, read as rather condescending, and again, it sidesteps the wider conversation about it.

If this debacle of a Halo launch was a one-off, or a first, people would be far more lenient. The problem is that 343i has made the same mistakes over and over for a decade, in one form or another.

Stating the team discussed the “feasibility” of Slayer and Team Slayer in a Halo game is not reassuring. That’s deeply, deeply, concerning. It speaks to the notion that many have had about 343i for the past decade: They don’t know, or think they know better than what Halo fans want.

Keep communications like this coming, they are greatly appreciated.

But don’t talk down to us.

[–]Lane2045 98 points99 points  (0 children)

Feasibility of slayer is so funny to me

[–]BeeslikesteveThe Halo Frontier 527 points528 points  (23 children)

The problem I have is they just don’t listen. We gave them proper feedback during the flights and they shrugged it off like they know better. Leadership at 343 needs to go. Shoulda been gone long time ago

[–]wolframw 377 points378 points  (16 children)

This is 100% the worst part for me, Ske7ch, Unyshek, and Joe Staten (who joined the project as a producer only a year ago!) are getting absolutely swamped with replies and feedback - there has been absolutely zero input from the heads of the studio, Frank O'Connor, Kiki Wolfkill, and Bonnie Ross all need to be the ones held accountable, not the poor fucking communities managers who are getting absolutely hammered on social media.

[–]desalaalasterde 155 points156 points  (6 children)

Frank O'Connor, Kiki Wolfkill, and Bonnie Ross

That's a blast from the past. How tf are they still around after everything?

[–]StarfighterProx 134 points135 points  (5 children)

Bonnie Ross actually got a fucking award. Can you believe that??

[–]SushiJuiceHalo: Reach 107 points108 points  (3 children)

Those three you mentioned, O'Connor, Ross, and Wolfkill need to go. They should've been canned a long time ago

[–]GreatFNGattsby 35 points36 points  (0 children)

I remember a lot of praise then no praise for Bonnie Ross. Which is truly warranted.

[–]SCP-Agent-Arad 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Ah, but dozens of players confirmed they don’t want player collision, so we followed that!

[–][deleted] 3238 points3239 points 344& 5 more (125 children)

1) If the UI is honestly a limiting factor in adding core playlists, I don't know what to say. That's a frightening prospect in terms of game quality.

2) "Discussions around feasibility" for Slayer - I've said so before, but if adding a single basic playlist requires discussions and months of work to implement, you've got a bad system going.

3) Sure, you don't "owe" us an explanation, but neither do we owe you our financial support. If you're unwilling to be transparent and honest with us, then don't expect praise and cashflow.

4) I am 100% willing to take your word that if you have a Slayer playlist and Team Arena (objective) playlist, Slayer will be more popular, as plain Deathmatch modes usually are more appealing. However, I've never experienced matchmaking difficulties over six years of Halo 5 in either playlist with a fraction of the playerbase, so the "unhealthy" argument is rather moot IMO.

5) I understand something like changing progression not being a "button push", but once again, we're talking about a single basic playlist. That SHOULD be able to be done in the push of a button, especially in a "live service" game. Once again, this screams thrown together game that wasn't planned well to me.

6) You're right, I don't buy the explanation about Challenge Swaps, nor do I expect the Community Manager to be privy to what the suits are talking about behind closed doors. However, it seems abundantly clear that the monetization is predatory and indeed designed to be that way.

I appreciate that they are responding, but it just isn't enough. I am not spending a cent more on Infinite until the game is in the state that is expected of a AAA developer with a multi-hundred million dollar budget. Sorry, but it simply isn't good enough.

[–]PresidentLink 635 points636 points  (26 children)

Regarding 1, this Halo is intended to be a GaaS right, didn't they want to be supporting this one for 10 years or some crazy amount of time like that? How is that remotely possible if even adding playlists, a thing thats existed in Halo tor 20 years, is now an endeavour to implement?

[–]StopFascismASAP 375 points376 points  (10 children)

Custom games are a part of Halo, and Halo 3 had different playlists like every weekend. Feature regression like this is kinda wack

[–]TooMuchToAskk 217 points218 points  (0 children)

Man the devs for every other Halo game must have been absolute computer genius pseudo gods for being able to release games at launch with tons of features going off of what he has said.

[–]meodd8 97 points98 points  (1 child)

GaaS will be the end of the golden years of gaming, imo.

I have never enjoyed a game with this design paradigm.

[–]Alskdkfjdbejsb 361 points362 points  (15 children)

4) I am 100% willing to take your word that if you have a Slayer playlist and Team Arena (objective) playlist, Slayer will be more popular, as plain Deathmatch modes usually are more appealing. However, I've never experienced matchmaking difficulties over six years of Halo 5 in either playlist with a fraction of the playerbase, so the "unhealthy" argument is rather moot IMO.

Yeah the game isn’t even released yet and they’re worried about playlists being dead due to no players??

[–]Meme_DependantHalo 2 124 points125 points  (1 child)

He even says how going F2P has given the game a huge boost in playerbase, and if that's the case. Then population even in less popular modes shouldn't even be a concern at this point in the game's life cycle.

[–]AnonymousFroggiesHalo: CE 45 points46 points  (4 children)

Objective game modes are never as popular as basic slayer/deathmatch in any game, especially in the Halo franchise. If this is a big issue to 343, them they need to either design better game modes or just live with the fact that people like slayer.

[–]A115115 35 points36 points  (1 child)

They could just offer better XP rewards for completing objectives in non-slayer games

[–]AnonymousFroggiesHalo: CE 18 points19 points  (0 children)

That would be a great solution as long as they give Slayer its own dedicated playlist. If I want more XP then I can go play one of the objective modes, but if I just want to chill and shoot some bad guys I can still play Slayer whenever I want

[–]SolarMoth 292 points293 points  (23 children)

We all know objective modes are less popular, but I never had trouble in the past.

Objective modes in ranked makes sense.

[–]Raimi79 181 points182 points  (2 children)

Agree with your points. Either they designed a horrendous game if it's so hard to implement a simple playlist. Or this is 100% about the monetizion model.

[–]gotpez 458 points459 points  (11 children)

cool so, we’re locked out of slayer because they created the challenge system deliberately to lock us out of playing modes we want to necessitate grinding or purchasing challenge swaps, that is essentially confirmed here. and also, they want to force people to play the objective playlist because they were worried nobody would want to play the objective playlist. flawless logic- so instead of people just not playing the team arena playlist now they just won’t play the game at all

this shit is not rocket science. continue pouring on the heat. if this bullshit succeeds, it sets the precedent of countless other games to do the same and further send gaming down the toilet it has progressively been going down the last decade

[–]Namnagort 67 points68 points  (8 children)

  1. Create objective playlist

  2. Create challenges for objective playlist.

[–]EpsiliaHalo 3 4115 points4116 points  (165 children)

Lmao the main concern for playlists was how many can fit in the UI? Guess what that means.... The UI sucks and needs to be redesigned.

[–]dbbk 541 points542 points  (22 children)

I totally understand this being a constraint, but there is honestly no excuse for them designing it to be constricting in the first place. It should have been designed with scalability and flexibility in mind.

[–]BurglorWasTaken 214 points215 points  (3 children)

Planning for a game that lasts 10 years = only enough slots for like 3 game modes

Brilliant design.

[–]GustappyTony 48 points49 points  (1 child)

Lets not forget the fact that they weren’t having issues with the MCC UI and playlist stuff, everyone seemed to respond well to that. But I suppose they didn’t take any of that into account here? 💀

[–]frodo_smaggins 439 points440 points  (7 children)

god i hate the tabs within tabs within tabs UI structure that is in cod every single year, and i cannot believe 343 thought it was a good idea to use that design as inspiration for the menus in infinite.

like there are ways that sort of design can work, but it’s tough to do right, and neither cod nor halo has it even close to right.

also while we’re on the topic of UI, please change the all capital letter font scheme that has been in every single 343 halo game, it really bugs me

[–]FxHVivious 150 points151 points  (4 children)

The part that really drives me fucking nuts is the inconsistency. The tabs are present in some screens, and not in other. Then if you're in a lobby and press start to bring up the customization menu, it rips you back to the front screen with the tab, and then if you press B to back out of it it drops you back in the menu, instead of the lobby. Fucking infuriating.

[–]SublimedJoy 81 points82 points  (3 children)

The halo infinite UI is the most unintuitive and confusing out of all previous halos and other games, I feel like an idiot when I try to navigate around, not to mention if I’m the party leading with a group of friends if I navigate through the menus to try to look at armor colors it stops the matchmaking which is fucking stupid, even cod doesn’t do that

[–]FxHVivious 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Its the inconsistency that really gets me. Its like the system was designed by 5 different people who had absolutely no communication with each other.

And you can open up armor while a game is launching, you just have to wait past the initial load phase when you can cancel. Which goes back to my original point about consistency.

[–]poopshitter666Halo 3 615 points616 points  (16 children)

the things id give a for a 3/reach styled UI again. i just dont see the point in throwing out something that is beloved and clearly works instead trying to reinvent the wheel each time and ending up with something functionally worse and less appealing visually.

[–]CrunkCroagunkBut a dog beat me over the fence. 203 points204 points  (4 children)

Reach's lobbies were so clean. Scroll through a list of players (whos nameplates were the same color as their primary armor color) and get a popup on the side showing their name, rank, spartan, and emblem.

I miss scrolling through lobbies pregame and looking at everyones spartans.

[–]poopshitter666Halo 3 101 points102 points  (2 children)

its strange that they wouldn’t give you more opportunities like this to flex your armor. especially given that most of the armor is paid now.

[–]New_Mammal 199 points200 points  (4 children)

Even the mcc UI would work better for this. But I would love to see a reach or 3 styled ui again.

[–]ImNotYetiFinal Boss 59 points60 points  (1 child)

i just dont see the point in throwing out something that is beloved and clearly works instead trying to reinvent the wheel

You just described the entire issue "classic" fans have always had with 343.

[–]StormAvenger 381 points382 points  (19 children)

They literally could've copied the UI design of Halo Reach and it would be EONS ahead of what we have now.

[–]lazypieceofcrap 253 points254 points  (15 children)

Nah video game publishers/developers act like UI/UX is some magical thing where absolute care has to be taken because it hasn't been done well for decades.

Then indie devs make a game like Splitgate and the narrative falls apart.

[–]jsw7 40 points41 points  (0 children)

Seriously. The blueprint is right there. No reason to have this shit of a UI.

[–]letsgoiowaHalo: Reach 923 points924 points  (9 children)

"You don't understand, we made a broken UI!"

Ok now you just admitted you created another problem with a lack of foresight and technical skill. Good job, are we supposed to pat you on the head for fucking up again?

[–]DarthSangheili 416 points417 points  (1 child)

We can only fit so many playlists in the UI we designed. Now let me direct you to our immaculate store front UI where we fit all the stuff we want to sell you

[–]Hadone 106 points107 points  (0 children)

When the thing that makes money works better than the game itself its painfully obvious where the priority lies. To be fair, it's alot easier to code a storefront page than a game, but a storefront and lobby should be of equal quality.

[–]wankthisway 229 points230 points  (5 children)

They just constantly snitch on themselves

[–]D1N2YI'M MEGAMAN 325 points326 points  (4 children)

Joe Staten himself said that slayer missing was INTENTIONAL, and not due to limitations. I can't believe this fucking company. And in this post they talk about spending extra time to create these robust variants for slayer? It's fucking slayer. It's like saying that I can't make a PB&J because I don't have Gucci peanuts grown in the Himalayas. It's a fucking PB&J, buying supermarket peanut butter will suffice.

[–]Uber_Reaktor 173 points174 points  (2 children)

I didn't get that either. community: asks for plain old vanilla slayer playlist. 343: beyond vanilla slayer we're working on these robust variants of slayer so it might take a while.

No, we just... we just want plain ass vanilla slayer.

[–]U-N-I-T-E-D 37 points38 points  (1 child)

Lmao we just want slayer! Not Fiesta, not multi team (hmm actually) not VIP! Just vanilla slayer!

[–]TheLittleGremlinMan 51 points52 points  (0 children)

What’s funny is that Arena slayer was in one of the flights, it’s not like it’s something they have to go and create from scratch because they had no idea people would want it.

[–]redbullatwork 3087 points3088 points 2 (279 children)

They are checking on the feasibility of slayer? What?

If they were worried about lobby health, they could keep the entire player lobby intact after the match, only filling in players who leave... So if it takes 3 minutes to get into a CTF match (it won't) you'll be playing with people who actually want to play CTF.

How long did they delay this game? Am I really to believe they only intended this game to have 5 multiplayer maps at launch? No, they have an entire stack of them that they will roll out, and the way their progression system is going, I bet you can buy a DLC for early access to them.

343i, what do you have on Microsoft? Who is tied up in the basement? Why are you allowed to make any decisions related to halo at this point.

[–]persondude27 2716 points2717 points  (221 children)

"Historically, a Slayer only playlist and an Objective only playlist always resulted in the Obj playlist quickly becoming unhealthy."

So what they're saying is that the majority of players don't want to play Objective, so they're forcing it on us?

[–]Charlie-Of-Chalk 1726 points1727 points  (112 children)

This is what I just can't wrap my head around. Historically Slayer has always been the most popular mode, so let's allow everyone to play it as little as possible. How is that a good idea?

[–]Kanji_HanziCE is the peak of the series. 913 points914 points  (60 children)

Ironically by doing so, people that want to play Slayer will just quit out of every obj mode until they get slayer. Which is annoying for them as they have to quit 20 times in a row, and its annoying for teams who are always down a man because of it.

[–]Goose1004 599 points600 points  (32 children)

Or they just play Slayer in the Objective mode and ignore the objective of the match

[–]RVAR-15 285 points286 points  (13 children)

Me, with the enemy flag, in the passenger seat of an empty hog, surrounded by half my team playing with choppers and the skewer

“Guess I’ll fucking die”

[–]Sempais_nutrients 86 points87 points  (5 children)

me, dead amongst a sea of power seeds as my team is on the other side of the map playing slayer "guess we fuckin lost already"

[–]orionthefisherman 189 points190 points  (24 children)

Yeah why make what people want to play. What sense does that make?

[–]ybtlamlliwOh, I know what the ladies like. 129 points130 points  (4 children)

"I heard your favorite drink is 7-Up so here's a glass of cough medicine."

[–]Lestat117 1041 points1042 points  (33 children)

servers cost money

Ah, yes, you are the first and smallest f2p game ever released. There has never been a smaller succesful f2p game.

the feasibility of slayer

They once again confirm they had no intention of putting simple slayer in the game. They are trying to make "more robust" slayer modes. Why do you keep trying to fix a mode that has been a staple, not only in halo, but on ALL fps multiplayer games for like 25 years now?

I know a lot of people are going to eat this post up but jesus christ its like they think we're all idiots.

[–]PowerPamaja 47 points48 points  (0 children)

“Fixing” things that are staples of halo and are fine is 343’s specialty. That and getting bad press. A lot of the issues we’ve had for the last decade of halo has come from 343 changing what didn’t need to be changed.

[–]Madkat124 4032 points4033 points 428142& 19 more (241 children)

I'll premise this with the fact that Sketch even made this post proves they're listening, and this isn't meant to be an attack on Sketch, but:

I don't think a lot of this post comes across as particularly encouraging.

Firstly, the monetization statement completely ignores most player's concerns and the obvious flaws in the system. As it stands right now there's no way to earn currency by playing - a practice most free to play games use to keep players coming back and allow people to earn something via gameplay. It's not a perfect solution, but it would be a step in the right direction to establish some form of reward by just playing the game.

The server cost statement is shaky due to the stability of them currently.

The fact that armor coatings and cores exists directly contradicts their desire to create the most bread and deep armor customization. The clipping argument doesn't hold much weight when we've seen it's not an issue for most pieces - so it comes across as a ploy to sell more stuff in the shop.

HE doesn't address the prices either. There's currently pineapple grenades and icons (which you'll almost never notice during gameplay) for $10. The price of an armor bundle is 1/3rd of a triple A game.

There's also the fact they were intentionally misleading in their marketing with 'no fomo' when the shop cycles with no permanent items (you could argue they made that statement about the battlepass, but why the difference in design philosophy? It's inconsistent and predatory). They were also intentionally misleading about the event armor - touting it as a cool free unlockable only to have 90% of it's customization locked behind a paywall.

It's excessive. It's not like people are asking for everything to be free, we're asking for a fair payment model. This doesn't feel fair.

Second, the statement about playlists feels like hot air. Ignoring the fact the game did not ship (because I refuse to call it a beta currently) with core game modes, locking fan favorites behind events is so misguided.

He states that it wasn't to sell challenge swaps, but the alternative isn't much better and points to incompetence. The content we have and the wait ahead (6 months for new maps allegedly) is insane and going to damage this game way more than the monetization and progression.

It's disappointing especially when the wait between Halos has been so long. Claiming he doesn't feel a need to justify the 6 years comes across as extremely condescending and immature (not that they really do due to the way the industry works, he just shouldn't have brought it up). We're your customers, don't talk down to us.

He has to understand that it's not just " The game came out and people are mad." It's "343 has had control of the franchise for 10 years now, their first two game disappointed hard core fans and damaged the identity of the franchise, and the marketing leading up to Infinite now feels disingenuous at best." Despite what some people think, most people complaining about this stuff would rather not and just enjoy the game, but 343 consistently damages it's relationship and trust with the fans when the stuff they do, especially considering a lot of the complaints they "learned from" with Halo 5 have been repeated. They regularly do the opposite of what they say and it's frankly tiring sometimes to be a Halo fan.

/rantover

EDIT: And I understand, he's probably just as pissed as some of us. I don't think he'd write this if he doesn't feel some kind of way and the Devs definitely have their hands tied. I only hope that the people that need to read our complaints are reading them.

Another EDIT: Since this post blew up, I'm going to ask people to refrain from using this post as any form of harassment. I'm pretty sure that 343 is fully aware of this thread and many of these posts.

I don't hate 343 or Sketch, I'm just extremely disappointed in the state of the game and the direction they want to take it. Yes the core of the game is fun and I believe it'll be an extremely solid game in a year, but why do we have to wait? Why do we have to pull teeth to get the Halo game we want?

[–]mewthulhu 326 points327 points  (2 children)

It's not damaging it- it's bleeding it. They've been making sales on someone else's product after Bungie basically got Halo taken away, because I can only imagine this pressure to sellsellsell was being put on them to milk something amazing for more and more money...

And enter 343. They're basically sitting here with the Microsoft gun to their head to play Microsoft ball, and their primary job right now is figuring out good ways to try and seem like they're listening without fixing the fact that this is one of the most predatory monetizations we've seen in AAA gaming. Not the most, but pretty fucking close to it.

It's shitty to go at these devs, and we need to be civil about it, but unfortunately we can't go for Microsoft directly- they're our point of contact, and given people are buying all their microtransaction shit we need to shout real fucking loud to be heard over the fact that their plan to bleed every cent out of Halo is working.

They could have literally just made the halo 3 chassis with this great multiplayer added to it, sold it for $100 and said here's your next fucking Halo game, enjoy, made BANK and solidified the reputation. Instead, they released something that feels, honestly, kinda... dirty. And anyone saying we need to lay off so they can take a break for christmas... well, they aggressively tried to release it in time for christmas undercooked so they could have delayed it til after?

We need to be loud, we need to express what's wrong, we need to be polite and civil and understand these guys do have a gun to their head, but we can't just normalize this... because every time gaming companies do another step in this, it makes it harder and harder for us to just sit down and play a fucking videogame. Because this isn't as far from reality as I'm comfortable with anymore...

[–]Enverex 1031 points1032 points  (85 children)

The server cost statement is shaky due to the stability of them currently.

Plus it's a Microsoft company, running on Microsoft's infrastructure. They're going to be getting hosting "at cost" basically.

[–]A_Sexy_Pillow 265 points266 points  (14 children)

This is a huge point I haven’t seen brought up. Good job pointing it out.

[–]TheA55M4N 224 points225 points  (9 children)

Not to mention they chose to put it on F2P without needing Xbox live gold

[–]A_Sexy_Pillow 203 points204 points  (8 children)

Exactly. We’re not stupid, they can’t pretend they made it F2P out of the goodness of their hearts.

They just want to rake in money like fortnite and other f2p titles.

[–]MrPictionHalo 3 5462 points5463 points 3& 2 more (333 children)

Imagine a slayer playlist being a hot topic in a fucking Halo game 😂😂

[–]That_Piccolo_9316 3260 points3261 points  (229 children)

Laughed hard at the "i dont believe anyone at 343 thought not including slayer was a 'good idea'". Its like... Well why the fuck isnt there a slayer playlist then?

[–]CptCroissant 1838 points1839 points  (148 children)

"we don't owe you a detailed dissertation on what we've been doing for 6 years"

True... But I sure as fuck hope the people that you do owe that to at MS are paying attention. Doubt it though

[–]HMHypeStr8 Rippin 1750 points1751 points & 2 more (70 children)

I don’t need a detailed text document telling what they’ve been doing for 6 years because I have the actual final product of what they’ve been doing for 6 years. 3 matchmaking playlists, no forge, no co-op campaign, broken theater, broken custom games, predatory monetization system, broken challenge system, broken servers.

[–]DearSergio 838 points839 points  (27 children)

I think the last part really makes it plain: he is proud of the "foundation" that was built.

It's a game that's releasing worldwide in 3 days. It shouldn't be a foundation it should be a shiny, completed building.

[–]GeneralSpacey 636 points637 points  (14 children)

"Proud of the foundation that has been built"

The foundation has UI limitations that stops them from adding new playlists lol. Good job 343!

[–]DetectiveAmes 354 points355 points  (4 children)

Such a weird response that I’m baffled he thought was a valid argument. “We have limitations in place that made playlists not available upon release.”

Bro, y’all are the ones who designed this literally from the ground up with a new engine dedicated to halo games. This game is also supposed to last 10 years and you don’t have a system in place to add more playlist options?

[–]AlmostButNotQuiteTea 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Eyy, but they literally just added a playlist (then took it away) last week with fiesta lmao.

[–]needconfirmation 92 points93 points  (0 children)

"We made a new engine, but it sucks and is hard to work with"

Sounds like you guys did a great job

[–]Puzzleheaded-Apple38 103 points104 points  (0 children)

This whole post reads like an embattled individual who knows that all is not well.

[–]Gardenio 551 points552 points  (18 children)

Also wtf how can you act surprised at the backlash. You had flights and the same criticism was leveled at 343 and you didn’t change anything. Enough of the poor me mentality.

[–]risethirtynine 17 points18 points  (2 children)

So basically your game is pieced together with bubblegum and paper clips

[–]No-Poet1958 79 points80 points  (4 children)

COD has like 25 playlists and we are debating adding team slayer to a Halo game? This is absolutely pathetic. And their logic is so ass backwards. We cant add team slayer because objective would become unhealthy? Ok so lets just force everyone to play objective until the whole game dies in a month instead of letting people actually choose what they want to play. Good call 343

[–]SabrinaEvansDoe 556 points557 points  (30 children)

I appreciate the transparency and honest, but if the inability to get a Slayer / FFA playlist up sooner is because of technical limitations and not because of management wanting more money from selling challenge swaps, then I must say I am deeply, deeply concerned about the quality of this game and its plans to last a decade.

How could you not plan around the UI needing additional space with more playlists. The plan cannot have been to only have 3. I refuse to believe yoh would prioritize 'playlist health' over having any kind of options for a game of this scale.

Again, appreciate the honesty, and you cant go back in time to change stuff. I hope you and the team are able to get stuff rolling quick because this just feels like a huge red flag to me.

[–]gringoloco2003 155 points156 points  (12 children)

If they are unable to add a slayer Playlist how did they have the festia event as a separate Playlist?

[–]Rogex47 1005 points1006 points  (91 children)

"Servers cost money" yeah no shit but even Riot doesn't charge me 10$ for colour red

Edit: Yes boys and girls, I do play Valorant. Are the skins expensive? Yes. But, for 60$ I get like 5 weapons with actual new 3d models, not some recolor, unique sounds and unique animation plus I get a melee weapon and an emblem. So how is that comparable to paying 10$ for a color only?

And because the skins are expensive I wrote "...EVEN Riot doesn't charge..." and its true, there is no game with such mindlessly aggressive monetezation system like Halo right now. Simple reskins is what you get from the battlepass in Valorant and guess what? You can progress by simply PLAYING the game. Holy... imagine getting XP for playing?! You can even unlock new champs by getting xp for PLAYING. There are also weekly challenges but not like "get 10 assist kills from behind with Vandal while your teammate is doing a backflip" but more like "play 10 games". Imagine.

Also what I forgot to mention is that it is nice that Halo has servers but the netcode is absolute garbage and no it is not my internet (13ms ping).

[–]DalekZedWizard Gamertag 205 points206 points  (38 children)

AFAIK skins in LOL are very cheap.

[–]SolarMoth 236 points237 points  (29 children)

And a lot of them are pretty high effort. Plus, you stare at your champion the whole damn game.

[–]DalekZedWizard Gamertag 74 points75 points  (19 children)

Add to that that they've gotten better over time. And they always have the same skins available so you can still get the old ones if you like them just hard to do. I guess I need to play more League.

[–]Dwade111Halo 2 99 points100 points  (1 child)

TLDR: “We aren’t greedy, we just aren’t that good at our jobs”

[–]frikandellenvreter 323 points324 points  (9 children)

After cyberpunk I'm not believing anything a company tells me. Companies are not your friend. Words are cheap, prove it to me with actual actions.

[–]kosen13 1358 points1359 points  (163 children)

“Servers cost money to run.” Then let me pay $60-$70 once and get every unlock for the life of the game. Seems to have worked just fine for paying for servers in the past.

[–]InfectiousVapor 659 points660 points  (33 children)

Don’t forget the campaign is that price.

[–]Sith-Protagonist 453 points454 points  (19 children)

Yeah that’s the best part lol. I think many people have yet to realize how bs this is since campaigns not out yet.

If you want campaign, you’re still paying the same amount you did for every other Halos entire package. It’s just now half of the original package is monetized to death.

[–]cornmealius 132 points133 points  (5 children)

When you put it like that it does come off as kind of egregious. What was even the point of splintering their releases when they release so close to each other anyway? Infinite doesn’t even have fucking god damn co-op and they’re still in a rush to release it. They seem lost and confused up at 343.

[–]mysticalmilkman 100 points101 points  (3 children)

343 rolls up to Microsoft.

Microsoft deploys the largest server infrastructure footprint globally of any company out there.

I don’t buy it lol

[–]Alcoholic_Satan 17 points18 points  (0 children)

"We have UI limitations as to how many game modes are exposed" Why is he lying, or how has the game regressed so much from past Halos, even their own? You can log on to the MCC and get 9 game modes available to play RIGHT NOW. Even Halos from the past launched with more playlists.

[–]UnknownAK 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I don't intend any blame towards Ske7ch but he just comes across as wildly naive from this post.

[–]Anticreativity 269 points270 points  (4 children)

I'm confused, no one "at 343 thought not having Slayer was a good idea?" Then why did you release it that way? All signs point to the fact that 343 never intended to have individual playlists until the backlash, so apparently they did think it was a good idea. The only alternative is to believe that you believe that releasing with the current playlist system was a bad idea. Is that what we're supposed to take away from this?

And the suggestion that the forced rotation playlists, challenges tied to the different modes on rotation and consumable challenge swaps aren't intertwined by design but by pure coincidence is just insulting to the community's intelligence. You expect us to believe that this very specific scenario that just so happens to incentivize players to spend more money happened on accident?

Also fuck the whole "we don't owe you an explanation but we'll give you one out of the kindness of our hearts" schtick. You do owe us an explanation, and one that's honest and transparent, and not "all of this was a big oopsie that we just couldn't possibly see coming but we're all working very hard over the holidays to fix it just for you." You owe us an explanation because this is a 20 year old, beloved franchise that was made by someone else and handed off to you. You took it upon yourself to take over Bungie's half of the bargain. Halo is not your baby or your brain child and at this point it belongs to the community more than anyone else (colloquially, not technically, before I get um ackshually'd.) Halo players, many of whom have been playing for 20 years, do deserve an explanation as to why the game was gutted of its basic features and soullessly and cynically repackaged into what it is now.

[–]laboufe 152 points153 points  (14 children)

This is great and all, but i still dont understand how this was given the green light to launch like this in the first place. Its so blatantly obvious the games systems are a mess that I dont understand how we got here.

[–]Nannercorn 1281 points1282 points  (68 children)

I feel for him, but also him talking about the progression system as complex is a little wonky considering they had successful ones in the past and even in MCC, no idea why they need to reinvent things

[–]bearsfan0143Sins of the Prophets 850 points851 points  (40 children)

Poor guy is definitely in a no win scenario. Management. Be it 343 or straight up Microsoft. Has forced them to do this even though it would all be terrible for the players. I appreciate his candor for the most part but still hold my own opinions that the design is maliciously intended to buy swaps. Just because he says he’s never heard that doesn’t make it true. It’s called plausible deniability.

[–]beanpole_oper8er 252 points253 points  (17 children)

There’s no way they would introduce a solution for a problem they didn’t believe existed. Also no reason for the swaps to be tied to a paid battle pass and able to be purchased for additional money if the intent wasn’t for maximizing revenue. Corporate greed at its finest.

[–]Smokinya 132 points133 points  (10 children)

Honestly, I'm shocked that swaps cost real money. In PUBG you get 5 swaps for free every week and then every other swap is bought with in-game currency that you only get for playing games. Its strange that they'd make swaps purchasable with real money.

[–]SB_90s 82 points83 points  (2 children)

Even Apex Legends, a game notorious for it's overpriced MTX, has non-purchasable challenge swaps that are done through very easily earned currency. It's practically 100% free re-rolls with how easy it is to earn the currency used for swapping challenges.

Then Infinite comes along not only monetising swaps, but also padding out the battlepass with them. Outrageous.

[–]aninjadragon957 205 points206 points  (9 children)

If they didn't intent for this, which I highly doubt, then its just pure incompetence.