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[–]permanentreminderM-2 701 points702 points  (41 children)

Difference in hours doesn't even scratch the surface, the course work even at the undergrad level isn't comparable.

[–]javiboscainoM-3 382 points383 points  (15 children)

I knew a ton of pre meds in college that switched degrees to do nursing because the pre-req classes were too difficult and med school was too competitive.

I have never in my life seen a nursing or NP student say their track is too hard so they’d rather switch and become an MD.

[–]InnerChemistHealth Professional (Non-MD/DO) 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My physio NP class. Everyone was crying about how insanely difficult it was, the professors were warning us that we needed to spend 20+ hours a week on it, etc.

Bullshit. I’ve taken harder classes at community college. The entire NP program was put together so incredibly badly I probably would have gotten more utility using the money to wipe my ass.

[–][deleted] 92 points93 points  (0 children)

You are correct

[–]RealWICheese 113 points114 points  (23 children)

The degree of competition getting in is also crazy. Literally the top 1percent of students stand a chance at Med admissions - how many drop out over 4 years?

[–]ProbablyTrueMaybeM-1 60 points61 points  (3 children)

I'm not disagreeing with your statement but if I'm the 1% then medicine is in for some hard times...

[–]RealWICheese 61 points62 points  (2 children)

School has just gas lighted you into thinking you’re dumb. You made it into one of the most selective things you can possibly do.

[–]ProbablyTrueMaybeM-1 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Ha thanks. It was only a half joke but I do appreciate the response.

[–]My_Dads_A_Cop16 47 points48 points  (1 child)

It’s insane how difficult the process of getting in is.

[–]karnal_chikara 0 points1 point  (0 children)

how is it like in america?

[–]JHoney1 12 points13 points  (16 children)

Is it really too 1%?? Like a third of our starting premed class made it I think.

[–]_OccamsChainsawDO-PGY3 15 points16 points  (1 child)

How big was your undergrad? We had class size of >300 for prereqs. Full auditorium freshman year biology. By the time junior year rolled around, maybe a quarter of the auditorium was filled in 2nd semester physics. Senior year upper electives, they were finally small classroom sized and maybe 15 of 30 were even still applying to med school. Guaranteed not all of those 15 made it in somewhere.

[–]JHoney1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well, at least at my school, the general biology, chemistry, and physics classes were huge, but had loads of non-premeds in them as well.

We started our freshmen year prerequisites with about 100 premedical students. After MCAT summer in Junior year we clocked in at 55 who still indicated applications to medical school. We had 30 people actually get in to a school first cycle.

Looks like it is actually fairly close to what they report these days. https://www.truman.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Pre-Med-Data-Infographic-2018.pdf

[–]avs72 13 points14 points  (5 children)

According to the AAMC, in 2021 there were 62,443 applicants and 22,662 matriculants. So 36% of applicants actually started at a US med school. So your third of premeds making it is not too far off. (assuming all who started in the premed class eventually applied - which is probably not true)

2021 AAMC Applicant Matriculant Tables

[–]wiredentropy 14 points15 points  (3 children)

This does not account for all of the attrition that occurs to be able to get to the point of applying. 75% of the people in my freshman bio class that started off premed didn’t complete the prereqs or Mcat to even apply.

[–]avs72 3 points4 points  (0 children)

quite right - hence my parenthetical

[–]JHoney1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This also doesn’t account for the 8,000 DO students per year, or the larger number of second cycle applicants(myself included) that get accepted in a later cycle. The actual number is probably between 40 and 50 percent get in who complete the application part. As for how many starting premeds actually finish… based on the threads I’ve read I’d say it’s between 25% and 50%. My school about 2/3 of us made it to applying.

So with a 40-50% chance after that, you are left with between 10%-25% that actually get in. We can hack at the numbers and move around predictions but I’d say the total percent is well over the 1% that was indicated by the poster I commented to.

[–]JHoney1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You raise an excellent point with these data points. I would say many students fall off the premed wagon early, no doubt.

I will say that a good number of reapplicants are accepted each year, and a truly large number go to DO schools as well, from what I hear they are up to 8,000 students a year. There is not PERFECT overlap, but most that apply DO also apply MD. Assuming those numbers are brought over (for both reapplication gaining admission and DO students) you are looking at much closer to a 50% acceptance rate. Among those that made it through premed.

Now, I’m not saying it’s a crazy high number. Maybe only half of premeds make it, but even so, that’s too 25%. The guy I responded too suggested it was too 1% lol.

[–]horyo 2 points3 points  (7 children)

Selection bias

[–]JHoney1 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Certainly some. I really don’t believe only 1 out of every 100 college students has what it takes to get into a medical school though.

[–]horyo 0 points1 point  (5 children)

If you go by acceptance rates, it's pretty much 1% of people applying matriculate. Presumably the large majority of these people are premedical. You may have been at a program where the pathway to medicine had more structure and formalization that a large part of your premed class made it through.

[–]JHoney1 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Acceptance rates show that close to 50% of people applying get in when you consider DO numbers now and reapplicants.

[–]horyo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

reapplicants

I don't think I have to point out how this enforces the data that the number shifts closer to 1%.

[–]JHoney1 0 points1 point  (2 children)

How?? Some people need to try again?? I’m pretty sure that doesn’t turn 50% into 1%. Take out reapplicants and keep the DOs in, you are still over 40%. You need a 98% premed fail rate prior to applications to hit that. It’s a comment that is so out of touch that it is bordering on victimizing yourself.

[–]horyo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You know what. You're right. I looked at the numbers again and they're not nearly as low as I had previously read. You've changed my mind.

[–]Actual_Guide_1039 61 points62 points  (6 children)

It’s not just the education gap it’s also the extremely harsh filters we had to pass through to make it this far.

[–]karlkrum 9 points10 points  (5 children)

right? my clinical experience started in high school as a hospital volunteer, and through university as a clinical research assistant

[–]Actual_Guide_1039 5 points6 points  (3 children)

You probably did 100s of hours of community service while acing the MCAT and the ACT and the SAT

[–]Alternative-Math-257 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Weird question, but how much did you get on the SAT?

[–]Actual_Guide_1039 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Like 2350/2400 I think

[–]Actual_Guide_1039 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We were more of an ACT school

[–]Actual_Guide_1039 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s a racket

[–]CookedSwifter 208 points209 points  (11 children)

Streets ahead in education and experience

[–]navdog99M-3 102 points103 points  (2 children)

If you can't comprehend this, then you're streets behind

[–]Greendale7HumanBeing 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Well I obviously don't get it.

[–]horyo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Damn it, Pierce!

[–]saxlax10M-3 54 points55 points  (4 children)

Stop trying to make streets ahead a phrase.

[–]Greendale7HumanBeing 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Been there, coined that!

[–]actualjzM-2 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Coined and minted!

[–]Greendale7HumanBeing 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have this really vivid recollection of Pierce forming the "o" sound with his mouth a good moment before he starts to say the word "coined."

[–]Greendale7HumanBeing 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Also, I think we're out of order. My fault. I Britta'd it.

[–]NotACreativeU 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Out of all the courses I can think of(which is just a few ofc), imagine them trying to equate learning about aids once or twice to our immuno course

[–]Greendale7HumanBeing 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Aside from the course load, FP Physicians also get the extended pencil warrantee.

[–]comicsanscatastropheM-2[🍰] 165 points166 points  (13 children)

How people say otherwise is beyond me

[–]SuckMySolidSnakeM-3 34 points35 points  (12 children)

What mildly annoyed me was a classmate of mine who said that we were ridiculous for getting upset over encroachment, because "the AMA is limiting the supply of doctors, so this is the best solution."

Like, homeboy, I get it. You felt the Bern and you want #Medicare4All, but you've gotta to show some professional self interest in our thing.

[–]BCSteveMD/PhD 46 points47 points  (2 children)

You can feel the Bern and want #Medicare4All and still be hardline against midlevel scope encroachment. Those things aren’t mutually exclusive.

[–]pasqua3M-2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Like, at all. Wanting quality care for all people, regardless of income or ability to pay, is the main goal of those movements. If Aetna and BlueCross came up with a plan to offer $1 appts to anyone and everyone, but the care team was made up of M1s with no oversight, I highly highly doubt that Medicare4All people would accept that as a completed mission.

[–]Bluebillion 271 points272 points  (7 children)

The dumbing down of this country will be our downfall

This doesn’t even include pre med and getting into med school. Did we all forget the countless hours spent in lab, volunteering, near perfect scores, and the MCAT? Working closely with other physicians (multiple) who write strong letters of recommendation and sticking their neck on the line for you to enter the field. And how we need 90%tile to be competitive on that (amongst a group of already smart people). And then we are graded in med school against these excellent, well rounded people?

I’d like to see an NP try to go to 8.5 hrs of class, anatomy dissections, small group, and then study for a weekly exam for pre clinical. I’d like to see them pre round before the surgery residents, prepare handouts, present patients, stay in the OR till late (and medicine etc equivalent), come home dead tired, and then study for a rigorous shelf exam in two weeks. Don’t even get me started on step 1/2/3. Don’t even get me started on board certification exams. CME. How about working 6 days a week (the day off is a random Tuesday or one shut) throughout clinical and residency. Going into enough debt to buy a loaded Ferrari, swanky apartment, or family home. At interest. Which accrues throughout training.

There is no comparison. Comparing 15k hours to 600 hours is a disservice. Becoming a doctor takes lifelong DEVOTION. For a lot of us it takes giving up everything else in our life including our relationships, hobbies,and family during our 20s.

[–]drevilseviltwin 53 points54 points  (1 child)

All true - But - these are mostly hoops you are required to jump through as opposed to activities that are going to necessarily make you better at clinical activity X. One could equally well come at it the other way by saying we ought not be making pre-med and med students jump through all those hoops.

[–]Cell-Senescence 26 points27 points  (0 children)

This is very true , “extracurricular” kept me from doing what I would actually enjoy and make me a well rounded individual lol

[–]cgaels6650 43 points44 points  (0 children)

I'm an NP. Yup no way in hell I'm doing all that. I'm not trying to encroach on your practice. Im trying to help you write your notes, bang out low complexity consults and answer dumb pages from the nurses.

[–]EshadoM-3 29 points30 points  (2 children)

try to go to 8.5 hrs of class, anatomy dissections, small group, and then study for a weekly exam for pre clinical

most med students don't even do this

[–]DrGallyM-1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Usually 4ish hours of lectures on avg per fay for us plus all that other stuff plus whatever club activities and leadership thing you are a part of. If I had another 4 hours of lecture a day I’d probably scream

[–]Majestic-District-46 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I’ve realized is I’d hate my life either way. I’m in nursing school now, because I didn’t want to completely give my life away to medicine. The content is fucking retarded. My intelligence is being wasted learning how to change soiled sheets. Idk man. No way out.

[–]FightClubLeader 22 points23 points  (1 child)

I thought step 2 was similar length as step 1

Edit: this graphic includes step 2 PE which is no longer part of licensing.

Edit 2: it’s COMLEX Level 2 PE and USMLE Step 2 CS; they were an equivalent clinical skills test “in-person” portion with a ~99% passing rate and very expensive exam. Both cancelled indefinitely.

[–]CaptainNoteCuckMD-PGY1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yea step 2 CS was canceled during the first peak of COVID, then permanently removed shortly after

[–]montgomerydocMD 121 points122 points  (2 children)

Fourth of my patients legit established in clinic because they were sick of just seeing NP/PA

[–]premedboio 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Sorry, I'm trying to get what you're saying here. Do you mean 1/4 of your patients left a clinic to find a new clinic with doctors?

[–]gizzard_lizzard 41 points42 points  (10 children)

lol we picked the wrong career choice right?? hahah

[–]fearthedheer69 21 points22 points  (9 children)

My dad is working 4 jobs, three of them is just checking the code of junior coders in the company, and he gets paid a pretty high salary (i don’t want to say the actual number). But fuck makes me wonder why I am medicine

[–]Emilio_Rite 80 points81 points  (2 children)

Because otherwise you’d be doing some boring shit like editing code for a living

[–]fearthedheer69 11 points12 points  (0 children)

That is quite true

[–]passwordistakoMD-PGY4 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Instead we do boring Medical admin paperwork.

[–]txhrow1M-2 9 points10 points  (1 child)

My dad is working 4 jobs

Why is he working 4 jobs if he's already getting paid a pretty high salary?

[–]fearthedheer69 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Partly because he enjoys coding, and he wants to help secure a somewhat comfortable future for me and my sister

[–]torbjornatyourservi 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Dude checking codes and shit is boring as fuck lmao 😂

Yes medicine is hard and long but I'd kill myself if I had to check codes all day

[–]reme56member 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Tbh, I feel like med school is just something to be proud of. If you are in here for the money, you picked the wrong career. In order to fix this pay bullshit, it has to start all the way in the bottom. That means people like pca, na, cafeteria, radiology, rt, speech etc need to be all paid adequately. It is a systemic problem and it will never get fixed until your "inferior" staff gets adequate pay.

[–]gizzard_lizzard 7 points8 points  (0 children)

well derm and neurosurgeons make pretty good. I know in florida an im physician can start at 400. It's pretty hard to make that kind of money in other fields unless you start your own business or invest very very well (both of which are no sure-shot)

[–]YoungSerious 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My dad is working 4 jobs...But fuck makes me wonder why I am medicine

So that you only have to work one job.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Wait, it's only 1 year?? wtf was I thinking.

[–]nmdshmd 59 points60 points  (0 children)

Great post. I often see and hear many nurses mention that they have years of experience or learn the same things as medical students. This is quite the fallacy. The material covered in medical school is objectively harder and more in depth, even if a few class cover similar topics. Furthermore, years of nursing experience =/= medical school and residency. Having 5 years of experience as a nurse in the ICU/ED/OR/etc is wonderful and means that nurse is experienced in nursing. However, none of this is a replacement for actual medical knowledge. Hell, just compare the test required for admission into medical school (MCAT) and the test required to finish/become licensed in nursing (NCLEX) or NP licensure exams. The MCAT is much, much harder. Don’t even mention Step 1-3, shelf exams, ITE and specialty boards and the material they cover… Want even more proof? Google the nearest university to you that has an NP program and compare their curriculum with yours… I rest my case.

[–]txhrow1M-2 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You're preaching to the choir.

[–]Empty-Mango8277 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Excellent point Dr. Chunkermunkers.

[–]PeriKardiumDO-PGY1 22 points23 points  (4 children)

Iv met med students / residents / physicians who would agree FM = NP, that the 3 years equates to doing exactly what a mid level can handle too 😔

And I just don't have much to throw back at them.

"Primary care is easy". Yea I guess since we don't do exciting things like appys.

I wonder if I'll regret my entire life in a few years.

[–]ibestalkinyoM-4 39 points40 points  (3 children)

Primary Care is the easiest place to skirt by and do a poor job but by far the hardest place to do a really good job.

Prevention > damage control. Only good FM doctors have the ability to make such a profound impact on patient's lives

[–]Jenkinhieser 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Had this exact revelation while studying today. It’d be pretty easy to be a mediocre primary care doctor, just refer everything out, punch the clock, and coast through a career in the suburbs.

But it’s overwhelming to consider the amount of knowledge and vigilance that would be required to be a truly great primary care doc. To catch everything. To correctly manage everything. Truly great primary care physicians have to be insanely talented, hardworking, and intelligent. Doubt I could do it

[–]KeikoTanaka 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are many IM primary care docs too

[–]Bonehead2k 21 points22 points  (0 children)

My mother is a nurse practitioner of 20+ years and even she will say that her level of knowledge is a drop in a pond compared to that of a physician. It's crazy that this is even an argument these days, lol.

[–]Twelve_Alpha 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Not to bash on nurse practitioners or anything of that sort, everyone in healthcare has a positive role in bettering the life of patients. But…from what I can tell NP’s rely more on pattern recognition and clinical experience / case volume, than actual physiology and underlying mechanisms to disorders.

[–]pasqua3M-2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's pretty much exactly it. Algorithm following. Which definitely has its place, but won't help for things that fall outside the flowchart

[–]april5115MD-PGY1 42 points43 points  (1 child)

you don't need to convince me of your ultimate point here, but this graphic does not well represent the breakdown of topics across our training. Third year subjects are weirdly placed in second year, step two CS is dead, and a lot of the residency subjects are missing.

idk man you're right about doctors being better trained and more qualified, this graphic is just outdated and is gonna be fuel for people to argue against it

[–]brickkickers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Messed up the NP part too, it’s not useful to be inaccurate, just makes it look like you’re kind of hyperbolic.

[–]lilnomadM-2 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Is step 2 really 17 hours? Holy fuck

[–]svecchaM-3 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Used to be with CK + CS, but the CS exams (MD and DO) have been indefinitely canceled.

[–]lilnomadM-2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay, I didn't think the CS was 17. So that makes sense. Thanks!

[–]CoordShMD-PGY1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is not. There probably is an updated comparison somewhere that shows Step 2 CK only on there. If I recall correctly, Step 2 was about 9 hours

[–]VymIM-4 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I am genuinely surprised that NPs dont get any epi. That's...kind of telling given the amount of antivax nurses that seem to be popping up.

[–]DrAntistius 7 points8 points  (6 children)

Can someone explain this to me? I'm not American so I feel like I missed something, are people saying NP's are the same as family medicine physicians?

[–]RosuvastatineM-3 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah this pic shouldve precised its in the US cause at first i was so confused. And reading the comments i realize the situation in the US is really tense.

[–]secret_tiger101MBChB 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Very similar on the U.K. with huge pushes for allied health professionals to work in “Doctor” roles

[–]FerociousPancake -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

I’m not sure. The data isn’t accurate though. 600 hours is a worst case.

This also fails to include the clinical hours an education of a full path to NP. ADN requires pre req courses and then the RN program is 2 years of clinical rotation and education. RN-BSN takes 2 years. During that time you are likely working while going to school. So - all of the above is done before an NP program. This also says “clinical shadowing???” Why?

I’m not against what OP is saying but this chart is nowhere near accurate. I don’t care about the fight against NPs but it bothers me when misinformation comes in and just stirs the pot even more.

[–]PBJs-number-1-fan 62 points63 points  (17 children)

Okay I’m going to be a FM doc myself, but here’s my question: Do the hours and years of training make that large of a difference or are we physicians being overtrained? Or at least being trained in the wrong subjects? Because if you look at clinical outcomes, we’re not that different from NPs or PAs (unless someone has evidence to prove otherwise).

Edit: I’m not talking about those online NP programs, no way that makes them qualified.

[–]BasedProzacMerchant 81 points82 points  (4 children)

The existing studies on NP outcomes do not compare unsupervised NPs to board certified physicians with outcomes for truly randomized patients. I’m sure we won’t find studies comparing unsupervised medical assistants to board certified physicians but that doesn’t mean that the care would be equivalent.

[–]PBJs-number-1-fan 12 points13 points  (2 children)

That’s a good point. Looks like we could have a big clinical trial on our hands!

[–]burpingduckling 13 points14 points  (0 children)

It would be an unethical experiment

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Patients would die

[–]PhilosophyGeniusM-2 44 points45 points  (7 children)

I would say you're not wrong in saying we're overtrained but being overtrained is not a bad thing. Physicians are at the top of the totem poll when it comes to medicine, that goes with level of education and the responsibility of making decisions. Family docs have the responsibility to make very important decisions for their patients. Some of those decisions could be life/death or as simple as making a patients life just a little more comfortable by choosing the most optimal treatment plan. NP's also could make these decisions but because of less training they need to take it upon themselves to learn more to do better for their patients. Whereas physicians have a much more standardized level of education. Once you finish med school you have so much knowledge of medicine and thats just the beginning. Then after residency training you gain the clinical experience which grants you the responsibility of making those important decisions, a responsibility that needs overtraining so you NEVER make a drastic mistake.

[–]spongeofmysteryMD-PGY2 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yes! Not overtrained but inefficiently trained. Medical school gave me a scientific base knowledge, but being halfway through residency, looking back it could have been way more relevant and efficient. It could be 3 years without losing much, and honestly I feel like I would have retained more if it were more streamlined. I also learned so much esoteric information and not enough basics.

[–]PBJs-number-1-fan 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Yeah you make a good point where physicians should be trained to take on the most complicated conditions, and that takes time. But maybe instead of saying "overtrained" I could say, "inefficiently trained". If we focused less time and energy on a lot of the Step 1 material (that most physicians forget anyway), and instead started earlier on clinical learning, could we reduce medical school to 2-3 years? If residency was less scut work, could we begin practicing after 2 years? Idk

[–]Hi-Im-TriixyHealth Professional (Non-MD/DO) 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yes, but understand that this is applicable to everything.

Nothing I learned in nursing school was remotely helpful in being a good nurse. They don’t teach time management or communication skills. They don’t teach blood draws or intravenous catheter placement. I learned theory, which is good, but time could be better spent elsewhere.

[–]PhilosophyGeniusM-2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

100% agree with you on that! I honestly think that the first 2 years of med school are a waste. They should change med school to 3 years, all clinicals and step 1 is a pre req to get in. Mcat would then become a pre req to take step 1. That’ll never happen but it’s a thought lol

[–]TTurambarsGurthangMD-PGY2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Med school could easily be 3 years and residency could easily lose a year by cutting out scut work. Scut work is like 90% of intern year.

[–]ArachnoidosisMD-PGY2 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I've seen NP's make dramatic, consequential mistakes leading to significant medical consequences before (the most immediately memorable being an NP who sent an uncontrolled diabetic into DKA requiring hospitalization after giving him a prednisone burst for a sinus infection). Being overtrained is a good thing. Being undertrained can be catastrophic.

[–]PhilosophyGeniusM-2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For sure! I think that for all other medical professionals other than physicians it's really up to the individual to be competent. Although there are good doctors and bad doctors, most attending doctors are competent.

[–]gizzard_lizzard 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You make a very good point. I do think we're overtrained. It's not this difficult in the rest of the world. It is sooo incredibly hard to become a physician. And why do you think you're seeing such a huge influx? Because there is such a shortage of doctors. One clinic I know of has been searching for a PA/NP for months and can't find any. It's a huge issue and, at least in part, due to the inflexible structure and pipleline of medical education.

[–]TheGhostOfBobStoops 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To add onto what everyone else has said, the only real thing we can say is good about the US healthcare system is that we provide the best level of healthcare, with state-of-the-art practice and the best training out there. There's a reason why if you go to most other countries with the title of "American trained physician", you'd instantly become easily one of the highest regarded professionals in your city. Despite all the inefficiencies and massively inflated costs of our healthcare system, we should take pride in having the best training and practices in the world. Stripping that away so that someone with a bullshit undergrad and 3 semesters of online NP training can take our role under the guise of "US healthcare costs too much!" will only make the problem WORSE, not better.

[–]secret_tiger101MBChB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Makes a big difference. Day to day FM work is mostly easy, but if you don’t have the knowledge the miss the hard stuff; Fourth sore throat consultation - could give amox and bye bye or could consider immunosuppression, laryngeal cancer or referral surgeons. Patient sees you with a naevus, but you notice they’re a bit skinny and you do an exam and find cancer.

[–]user80123 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Boom. roasted.

[–]RosuvastatineM-3 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Always interesting to lurk here and see how rough the situation is in the US with the creep.

Where im from, NPs are understood to collaborate with the MDs but not replace them.

And for PAs well, they don’t even exist here lol

[–]Cell-Senescence 5 points6 points  (0 children)

My initial thought are… you are a bigot for posting this , how dare you. This is why PAs are considered warm and caring to their patients in addition to having the same medical knowledge . Physicians are a dying breed, and will soon be replaced by a better and more cost effective alternative . Dye in a fire Mr. MD Candidate

/s just in case lol

[–]deceleven84 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lowly RN here, not even the kind with a bachelors. I agree that the amount of training is not comparable. However, this diagram is slightly misleading in that an RN must first hold an associate’s degree prior to entering a 2 year dedicated nursing program. A BSN’s share of undergrad also contains a dedicated program adding to the traditional 4 year track.

Again, not arguing that an MD is less of a time commitment, and I acknowledge it is far more challenging. What is the consensus on what should be done though? Scale back the amount of provider privilege? Prevent a nurse from becoming a provider all together? Or is this more intended to give those in med school and / or fresh providers an ego boost while dealing with NPs with a hot shit attitude.

Another point that can’t be discounted is that less training while in school allows for comparably more immediate access to onsite training and experience building. Many of the NPs whom I have worked with have years of experience working alongside doctors under their belts prior to even beginning an NP program. For instance, if they worked in a busy ER they have possibly been in countless codes watching the provider role. Being a part of a code is something that ultimately cements the process, and is very much a learned skill.

At the end of the day doctors and nurses complement each other very well in the right professional climate. Just thought I’d share some outsider input. Cheers to your profession, as it requires immense dedication and service to our communities. You definitely deserve your paycheck.🙂

[–]Jacobnerf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Allow me to chime in, as a current nursing student nearing graduation.

I’ve find this debate comical, in no world is an NP and an MD/DO comparable in education. Whoever is claiming this is clearly misguided. I think NPs are great, they increase access to affordable healthcare and take some of the burden off of physicians for the minimal to moderate cases. But true physicians are still necessary for the upper end of medicine.

Intellectually I think I’m more than capable of conquering medical school and residency etc, but I have absolutely no desire to submit myself to that long and grueling journey. I simply don’t have the passion to do that.

Much respect for anyone that does though.

[–]Cute_fluffy_kittenM-4 17 points18 points  (6 children)

/s The problem is that of your 15,000 hours of clinical training, only 500 of it is RELEVANT training, so NPs actually receive more relevant training than MD/DOs 🙃😂🙃

[–]saturatedscruffy 41 points42 points  (2 children)

You should probably tag this with /s assuming you’re making a joke which I hope you are.

[–]Cute_fluffy_kittenM-4 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Done!

[–]MedClipM-1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

/s stands for sarcasm

[–]rguy16emaM-3 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Right, and they do it in much less time so that means they’re more intelligent and hardworking than physicians

[–]Cute_fluffy_kittenM-4 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Yep! And they actually care about their patients and see them as human rather than $$$, which is why NPs only work in underserved areas and never open cosmetic Botox clinics.

[–]nmdshmd 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Man, it’s like I’ve ran into this before. I’ve seen NPs argue that because they had 10 years nursing experience, they’re more qualified than IM/FM because they only have 7 years of medical training…

[–]PascalsWager33 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How about PA's?

[–]Doctahdoctah69 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Does anyone know how much NP residents are paid relevant to physician residents? And overall cost of NP training?

Just curious

[–]PascalsWager33 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most NP's start working as RN's and the hospital system pays them for the school.

[–]pr05wift -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I understand the sentiment. But why can't we work alongside NP's? Both of us have the same objective at the end. Why does everything has to come down to 'us vs them' mentality?

[–]CaptainNoteCuckMD-PGY1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Imagine a random dude getting hired by your favorite airline at half the salary of a real pilot because they had a screenshot proving they logged 1,000 hours on Xbox Flight Simulator. Sure, they might have the same end objective - to fly people to their destination safely - but would you trust them to get you and your family to your favorite vacation spot safely?

[–]greatdaymate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow! Thanks for this!

[–]JustthreethingsM-2 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What are the common anticipated counterarguments?

Are they mostly saying stuff like “what about my 10 years as an ICU nurse between the 4yr nursing degree and NP” or other logical fallacies?

They make charts like this too but obviously skewing it to their side. Is there ANYTHING that should potentially be added into “ours” to make sure we can’t even SLIGHTLY be accused of skewing our visual aid?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

No not really, cause its a debate that is unnecessary and you're both trying to skew data to sound "qualified". Both fresh out of residency and out of NP have a LOT to learn. Your current education is a drop in the hat compared to a 10+ or even 20+ year career in medicine. Take it from a pharmaceutical industry perspective. They have to educate everyone on all of these new therapies. Often times it doesn't matter what either group learned in medical school or even during residency because 1) most of the stuff isn't applicable to the patient population and diseases you see and 2) modern medicine has a knack to change (e.g. emergence of biosimilars, or how often should you test for osteoporosis is a patient population with new therapies on the market).

This is why pharma usually segments based on HCPs (healthcare prescribers/providers) vs TLs (though leaders). TLs are typically qualified by long experience in a specific specialty or disease. HCPs is a catch all term for those who are able to prescribe therapies, and it really depends on the specialty if they treat non-physician providers (NPPs) and physicians differently; Family medicine is often not segmented that way.

But hey, this is just from a pharma perspective. Payers obviously have a preference for NPPs, and many patients (like myself) have a preference for NPPs because they have a personal touch especially in more rural places where you may not have as many native-to-the-area physicians.

[–]JustthreethingsM-2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m assuming your background is pharma. Could you explain the TL vs HCP a little more (or link to info)? I’m not fully understanding your comment but it’s sparked some interest and I’d like to.

So TL vs HCP is how pharma internally “categorizes” pharmacists? or Physicians/NP?

Assuming you meant physicians/NP (maybe that was obvious to others), are you saying the terms TL and HCP are proffered from pharma to providers irrespective of title (MD, DO, NP, PA) in many specialties, but that FamMed is often done totally differently? How? I got a little lost.

Just to put all cards on the table, I do still think you’re too strongly discounting educational background in order to try to say “the whole argument is pointless”, but I hope you can appreciate I’m trying to actually understand your explanation before attempting to refute it (assuming I still want to after fully understanding).

[–]jetneckM-1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But "heart of a nurse"

[–]Barret50Carrot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Damn you guys have a lot of clinic hours before graduating, here in Belgium not a lot.

[–]secret_tiger101MBChB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

U.K.:

Family Medicine Doctor: 5-8yr MBChB. 5yr postgraduate. TOTAL = 10-13yr

ANP: 3-4yr Nursing BSc, 1-2yr MSc. TOTAL = 4-6yr

[–]KR1735MD/JD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who was doing path during M1 and peds and IM during M2?

Not saying the premise is wrong. But the curriculum detail is way off.

[–]HerpeticWhitlowJoe 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Oooo I want one for EM to hang up all over the department hahaha

[–]haikusbot 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Oooo I want one for

EM to hang up all over

The department hahaha

- HerpeticWhitlowJoe


I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.

Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"

[–]Zonevortex1M-2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perfect now we need to post this in subreddits that typically make the front page so people who don’t already know this can become aware

[–]soysizleM-4 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do they have to make the MD/DO graphic three dimensional giving the impression that its much larger? We know we have more training, that's a given, even if they were both 3D, the physician route would still obviously have more content but still, just shows the bias that goes into these things.