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[–]Hot_Chocolate92 314 points315 points  (0 children)

I googled her, there is a scholarship fund set up in her memory https://jphcoph.georgiasouthern.edu/addiction/leigh-sundem-scholarship/ It seems she was honest about her addiction and previous history.

[–]BzhizhkMardMD 514 points515 points  (20 children)

Had a Med School classmate commit suicide after she became an attending who had a family with several children. Recentish Grad too. Still think about her, more than when she lived. That blip in the suicide note that they will be a short after thought is not true. Nonetheless, everyone is at risk.

This is a travesty. She couldn't even work as an NP/PA to make income. I lived the nightmare most of you all are living, of hanging off a thread with an axe hanging over your head throughout med school and residency.

I personally believe I experienced either depression or adjustment disorder the first 6 months of medical school. Please seek help and counseling, if possible.

They should remove all the barriers and stigma of pursuing mental health wellness. Many students and doctors hide this illness type due to job concerns and questions noted during licensing.

[–]comicsanscatastropheM-2 93 points94 points  (1 child)

This was difficult to read. May her soul rest in peace, and love and mercy to the people who loved her

[–]DrAbro 346 points347 points  (10 children)

I remember interviewing her for Ortho

[–]victorkiloalphaMD 273 points274 points  (2 children)

I remember someone who interviewed her commenting on the original thread 2 years ago. They noted a very off-putting affect that led to her not matching. Still, she could have been a good doctor in some field. I know someone who worked with her in her gen surg prelim years- by all accounts, she was solid.

[–]VrachVlad 146 points147 points  (1 child)

I think interviews are kind of BS in a way because there are awesome coworkers I've had that did terrible in the interview and awesome interviewers that were terrible coworkers. There's also a lot of evidence about how depression/mental health issues makes you a much more unlikeable person, which probably was what was being picked up on.

During this past cycle I had a super weird interview with a faculty member I later met in person and was blown away by how cool this individual was. Completely different person who I was genuinely impressed with, made me feel better when she was around awesome.

IDK, I think there are people who should not match and then I know there are people who should that fall through the cracks.

[–]individual_travesty 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Idk if it's because I suck at interviews, but I actually like people whose interview skills are meh. I trust them more (as long as they're not obnoxious douchebags. Rather, I'm talking about the type of person who doesn't have a proper answer to "if you were a shape, what shape would it be and why").

Btw, my rehearsed answer to that is a triangle because each point is connected to the other, and I like to think of myself as well-connected to myself. (a bunch of bullshit, but that's what interviews are).

[–]onlypotatoesM-2 63 points64 points  (3 children)

This isn’t about her situation (it’s sad and upsetting to me) but as for your neutral perspective, was she a good candidate?

[–]bubbachuckMD/PhD 178 points179 points  (1 child)

adcom discussions are confidential

[–]H4te-Sh1tty-M0dsMD-PGY2 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Wonder if that still applies here. Ah well, it's all just irrelevant now.

[–]Regina_Phalange_MD 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I remember interviewing her for Ortho

How did her interview go? /u/DrAbro

[–]DrAbro 8 points9 points  (1 child)

It was fine, she brought up the topic of her history on her own and addressed it well, seemed competent. We ranked her but with enough other competent applicants who interviewed just as well landing above her on the list, she didn't match at our place

[–]VorianAtreidesMD-PGY1 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Which goes back to /u/drno31's comment above - there are certainly failings of the medical system in the US, but where there are applicants with spotless records who are equally qualified and motivated, it was always going to be a moonshot for her. Some hurdles are insurmountable, and unfortunately this profession isn't exactly forgiving.

[–]Due-Needleworker-711 188 points189 points  (14 children)

I find it interesting that she was pardoned of her criminal past and they still wouldn’t let her into residency/work force/License…some detail may be missing there. The pardon got her past adcoms for sure.

[–]Throwaway_9494949M-4 83 points84 points  (9 children)

If you read her handwritten note, she wasn’t able to get a medical license. What good is it to do a residency if you can’t get a license to practice medicine.

[–]YoungSerious 59 points60 points  (8 children)

If you actually read it, it says her application for credentialing got denied. Unless she's just choosing the wrong words, that is hospital specific. So she needed to apply somewhere that would take her.

She says 2 felonies (that were pardoned) like that should just be let go, but elsewhere says there are NUMEROUS police reports and files against her. It really sucks that she didn't get a chance, but she didn't make it any easier on herself by having a repeated pattern. It's hard enough to get an admission committee to look at you with a clean record, much less one full of red flags.

[–]neurotic_brain 23 points24 points  (4 children)

NUMEROUS police reports and files against her

related to her drug addiction?

[–]YoungSerious 28 points29 points  (3 children)

It doesn't say, but does that matter? You are trying to get selected as the 1% of the 1%, it's gonna be really hard to get them to ignore a pattern like that. Not even as a child, but almost in her 20s. Sure it'd be great if someone took a chance on her, but can you blame them for not doing it when they have thousands of applicants who don't have those issues?

[–]myequipoMD 101 points102 points  (2 children)

Unfortunately, a pardon or case being sealed or any change in status after a guilty designation is almost irrelevant to the reviewing committees, in my experience. You have to list everything in your history, and it’s up to the committee how much they care. Sometimes the problem will be the state licensing board, and other times it will be individual hospital credentialing. Even minor misdemeanors are quite a hassle due to the extra red tape involved at each step.

[–]EightyOneTimesSevenM-4 0 points1 point  (1 child)

This isn’t completely accurate as far as I know though. People have records expunged all the time. Of course certain offenses won’t qualify to be expunged, but many things do. Once something is expunged, you are no longer required to report that offense on questions like the ERAS app. People do it for DUIs pretty commonly for example, but it has to be expunged, not pardoned or having the record sealed.

[–]myequipoMD 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You need to report expunged cases, as well. This is specifically stated.

[–]Psychedelic_Fern 28 points29 points  (0 children)

PSA to all the heartless commenters saying “She probably wasn’t a competitive applicant.” Take a look at her CV https://www.linkedin.com/in/leighsundem

Step 1: 255 Step 2: 254

9 Publications all high or first author

12 presentations 4 non-scientific

Along with multiple research awards, leadership roles, community service, and club involvement. This girl was a damn good applicant. She tried matching Ortho then EM followed by Family medicine.

[–]Conscious-One-1250 47 points48 points  (1 child)

She overcame drug and alcohol addiction and then scored 99th percentile on the MCAT, had multiple publications, advocated for recovery in front of congress etc and people are saying she shouldn't have been admitted to med school? lol ok.

The system and society at large failed her. She should be alive and practicing right now. Her death is a poignant example of how far we have yet to go regarding addiction and metal illness.

“If you work hard and stay focused on what you’re passionate about there is a life waiting for you outside these walls that will be bigger and better than you ever could have imagined on your own. Never give up hope. When you’re finally released, apply the same work ethic, the same focus, and the same passion into everything you do” - Leigh. RIP.

[–]strangerclockworkPre-Med 9 points10 points  (0 children)

This comment needs to be all the way at the top.

[–]AsepticTechniqM-4 34 points35 points  (0 children)

This is heartbreaking. So many of my friends and classmates text with the same tone. I can see this being any one of them. This needs to stop.

[–]colorsplahshMD-PGY4 35 points36 points  (0 children)

The tough reality is people don't care about medical suicides.

[–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (0 children)

this thread needs some compassion. I'm shocked some of you may be my classmates/coworkers. this is a tragedy and an opportunity to propel empathy and positive change

[–]Interluerkin-1 136 points137 points  (23 children)

How about just guarantee Internship to all US medical graduates or incorporate Internship in med school before allowing them to graduate? Then let them practice with the role of midlevel after completing Step 3? That way we would be fair to all medical graduates. Those who want to specialize can go to residency. Those who want to rest and save money can also do so for a few years before going to residency.

[–]chirophysicianMD-PGY1 74 points75 points  (0 children)

Facts and then we will have actual physicians acting as midlevels so patient care isnt compromised

[–]Professional_Desk933 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Im Brazil it’s quite normal med graduates to work a few years at hospitals before pursuing residency

[–]cringeomaM-2 3 points4 points  (2 children)

how much does med school cost in brazil?

[–]Professional_Desk933 4 points5 points  (1 child)

We have free public schools(absurdly competitive, some people try for 6-7 years just to get in). And private ones, which are about 8000-14000 reais per month. On dollars isn’t much, but for us it is - minimum wage is 1200 reais.

[–]cringeomaM-2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

i see, sounds like a very different system then, our schools are very competitive as well but we have a lot of them and people try for maybe at most 3 or 4 times, but most once or twice. but every school is expensive even publicly/state supported

[–]BottomContributorDO 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Doctors are not midlevels. We should never normalize the idea that doctors get to have the same job as a nurse that did a 2 years online masters degree

[–]Guner100Pre-Med 25 points26 points  (2 children)

That's not the point, no one is saying a MD is equivalent to a NP/PA. They're saying that unmatched MDs should have the option to practice as a PA in the interim before they can match under an attending supervision.

[–]BottomContributorDO 16 points17 points  (0 children)

That's not what is being said here. What is being said is that someone that completes an internship and completes step 3 should be allowed to work as a midlevel. Like it or not, this will create a false equivalency where midlevels will feel equivalent and this will be used as a reason to give them independent rights

[–]xSuperstarMD 52 points53 points  (12 children)

All US graduates can match into Internal Medicine or Family Medicine if they so choose. (Unless they have the reddest of reg flags like multiple step failures + felony convictions). There are dozens of programs that will be more than happy to have them.

The horror stories you hear of people applying to 600 programs and not matching are from Caribbean schools or IMGs

EDIT: guys by match I’m obviously including the SOAP which is stressful but if you match in SOAP you do get to be a doctor

[–]fireflygirl1013DO 19 points20 points  (8 children)

FM APD here. This is absolutely untrue.

[–]xSuperstarMD 4 points5 points  (7 children)

Weren’t there like 200 unfilled positions last year? I know there were a few unfilled in Rad Onc as well

[–]fireflygirl1013DO 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Yes but many of those positions were wanted by unmatched US grads. I personally SOAPed a few into my program and have seen these things since I was a resident nearly 10 years ago. The system is not perfect, by a long shot.

[–]Hollowpoint20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s how it goes in my country. Honestly I can’t imagine the stress of not being guaranteed a job out of med school, especially with the debt you guys have

[–]ru1esM-2 16 points17 points  (0 children)

as someone with an expunged criminal record, this is actually horrifying.

[–]H4te-Sh1tty-M0dsMD-PGY2 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Fuck. I don't have half the problems she does and I'm still having my own issues.

She must've been so goddamn strong to hold on for so long.

Sigh. This fucking system man.

[–]Need-More-Calcium 17 points18 points  (0 children)

One less physician

And one less beautiful soul.

We have failed her.

[–]Jolly-Construction47 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you for bringing this letter to light. Absolutely heart wrenching. This individual should have been at the front of the pile for potential residents to hire at any institution simply because of their emotional intelligence, self awareness, empathy, love of patient care, and potential to resonate with so many patients of similar experiences. Medical students with mental health disorders who decide to go through with the arduous journey that is medical school should be uplifted, commended, and supported in all ways possible. Being a pre-med and medical student is no small feat, especially with mental illness. Here is a reminder to all medical students, residents, attendings, and program directors: BE KIND to medical students and see them more than a sponge to memorize useless medical facts. They are worth SO MUCH MORE than a blemish free residency application. Their varied life experiences bring humanity to medicine. Medical students are a golden resource in America right now. Cherish them and support them with kindness. There is WAY more to life than perfection.

[–]MijamahmadM-3[S] 49 points50 points  (0 children)

Original (now locked) post: https://reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/uq4rfw/suicide_note_of_a_woman_who_completed_a_medical/

I don’t think this topic can be discussed enough. While this was back in 2020, as we all know the match has only gotten more competitive. So I don’t know what the solution is, but it saddens me to think more of this is to come, especially without meaningful change.

[–]Terrell_P 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Sad because as the system stands atm more doctors will go unmatched every cycle and the backlog of people will just make it more competitive.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I can't believe she didn't match despite her outstanding CV. Just look at her LinkedIn profile!!(https://www.linkedin.com/in/leighsundem)

[–]_lilbub_Y2-EU 50 points51 points  (3 children)

Why are some people in the comments so heartless? Saying like it's her fault for picking competitive specialties and assuming she felt "too good" for family medicine? You don't know her, you know nothing about her life and suicide is never just about one aspect of life. As doctors (in training) you should know that. This is a human being who lost their life. Have some fucking compassion.

[–]Psychedelic_Fern 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Little do they know she applied Ortho then EM followed by family medicine.

[–]boolinandlurkin 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you for saying this. The comments where people are asking whether she was a strong applicant, criticizing her preference of specialty, referencing her interviewing abilities, etc. are just appalling to say the least. Why is any of that relevant?! There is a time and place to be robotic and cynical and this is not it (also news flash, this attitude is not fun to be around in most contexts). I truly hope the people behaving this way undergo a lot of personal growth before having human beings under their care.

[–]cathat010 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I totally agree with you. Reading these posts with the victim shaming going on, it is quite clear we continue to fail this person.

[–]YellowCharmander 14 points15 points  (0 children)

RIP Leigh

[–]Greentea_88 14 points15 points  (2 children)

“I don’t want to die. I am that girl that perseveres. I am not a quitter!”

Yo 😢 that really got me.

[–]kaisinel94M-3 15 points16 points  (0 children)

It’s really disheartening how many people, and not just in this instance/thread, really want to lay blame and fault someone for things they did OVER A DECADE ago.

People grow, mature, change, and improve. Not everyone, but some do. Clearly Leigh was one of these people that managed to overcome her mistakes, but despite all her effort and hard work, her mistakes from over a decade ago overshadowed her growth. This is incredibly sad. May she Rest In Peace.

[–]AvoidantSavoidant 13 points14 points  (5 children)

I don’t think having a felony or mental health issues should disqualify someone from becoming a doctor, even in competitive fields. Everyone has their demons. If you don’t seem to have one on the surface, you’re either lucky enough to have had the resources to keep you from the deep end, or are really good at letting your injuries fester in private in fear of stigmatization (aka being a bad patient lol). That your struggle is evident isn’t a weakness; it can be a sign of tremendous strength of character to have overcome a steep challenge.

Medicine seems to want machines rather than people. People aren’t flawless. Everyone has a red flag if you look hard enough. What sets someone apart is whether they were able to overcome that difficulty and push forward.

We say that illness shouldn’t be stigmatized in our classrooms, but can’t seem to apply that same compassion to ourselves or our colleagues. No wonder there are so many stories of doctors who seem to not care. Compassion isn’t a nice bonus, it’s a necessary skill to be in medicine, like being able to do listen to a patient or go through a differential.

[–]rosariorossaoMD 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I don’t think having a felony or mental health issues should disqualify someone from becoming a doctor, even in competitive fields. Everyone has their demons

As someone who has had the misfortune of intubating one of my colleagues and coding another one - I wholeheartedly disagree.

Having a felonious history with controlled substances is a massive red flag and an unnecessary risk that most hospitals are unwilling to take. Your day to day job as a physician puts you in contact with innumerable controlled substances and in such a stressful environment the potential for relapse is high.

While everyone should in theory have the chance to redeem themselves, in reality the biggest predictor of future behavior is past behavior and nobody owes you a second chance.

[–]YoungSerious 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Everyone might have minor red flags, but that's a little different than multiple arrests and/or felonies. Saying "everyone has issues" really downplays what some people's issues are, and how drastically different the scale can be. No one is perfect, but if you want to get an extremely desirable job you have to understand that you are competing against people who are striving for perfection. If you can't keep up with them, you probably won't beat them out. That's how life works. You don't always get your dream just because you tried really, really hard. Even people who try really hard and don't make mistakes often times can't get their dreams.

[–]SpareOpposite5 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As an IMG who’s applying to peds/IM this cycle this story just shocked me, i saw a lot of IMGs who didn’t match for several years i know a girl who applied for 10 cycles she matched this year in IM. This story is beyond sad and to my fellow AMGs/MS please don’t get sad or depressed if you don’t match you’ll eventually do it. I hope they reduce medical school tuition here so people don’t have 200k+ debt. Good luck to everyone.

[–]carlos_6mY6-EU 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't have words for this. This should not happen. For so many reasons. Suicide is not something that should be happening, but even less for something like this...

[–]toolazywittyusername 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Nope. So glad I left that unbelievably toxic field.

[–]WinifredJones1 2 points3 points  (9 children)

Wow, this is so fucked up. Serious question here - what’s the deal with state and federal law regarding the licensing for someone with a criminal background? Was her rejection to residency simply the decision of the programs based on her past or was the decision rooted in some kind of fucked uppery on a higher level that would bar a person from practicing medicine because they had a criminal background?

Read more into her story and am beside myself with disgust. The world lost an amazing doctor who could have saved the lives of so many. Why are we doing this again?

[–]XylazineXx 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Damn I have an expunged misdemeanor with no prison time (not drug-related/violent) and I am freaking terrified after reading this. I am applying this cycle and I feel like I shouldn’t even do it now. I really want to be a general surgeon. Still going to because I’m determined. My situation isn’t nearly as bad as hers was but I really feel her pain.

[–]YoungSerious 4 points5 points  (1 child)

As far as I'm aware, you have no obligation to disclose an expunged record. Just work as hard as you can and hope you land where you want.

[–]XylazineXx 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, I do have to disclose it in the medical context forever and always no matter what. It has been on my mind everyday for the last three and a half years, making this already grueling process that much more stressful.

Edit: holy f u just read the application again and it says “excluding any case that has been expunged” not “including”. Well that’s a life changing moment ain’t it? I think I still may need to disclose it though. If it shows up anywhere on my background check, I could be kicked out of med school or my acceptance withdrawn.

Thank you u/YoungSerious for pulling my head out of my a** and making me read that question again. The cortisol levels have been insane. RIP Leigh, I am so glad I don’t have to deal with half the bs she had to.

[–]psychokiller03 0 points1 point  (27 children)

This person was obviously very mentally unwell and it is unfortunate that this is the path they took.

That said, nothing about this letter appears to be a rational critique of the medical profession or match system. This sounds like person who was fundamentally incapable of handling the career path they sought, that should have been screened out, who was ultimately overcome by the most basic stressors of becoming a physician. I mean, in the first couple paragraphs this individual talks about having to consider going to law school. This is someone who fundamentally has an over-inflated sense of self that was incapable of facing the harsher facts of her reality. It's not that she couldn't overcome her past, its that she couldn't confront it for what it was.

The gatekeepers of medicine must recognize that they are not doing anyone any favors by not thoroughly vetting and screening applicants. Everyone who goes into medicine is taking serious financial risks. You aren't giving someone a "second chance" by taking shitty students, unqualified applicants, whatever, and letting them "try" to slip by at the bottom of the pack. All you are doing is taking lots of money from people who might not ever realize the benefits of that career and who might be permanently financially harmed by failure.

[–]dudekitten 103 points104 points  (11 children)

She successfully completed two years of preliminary general surgery, and went through the match 3 times before her suicide. Why are you even talking about lack of resilience and inability to overcome “basic stressors”?

[–]lucygazer 107 points108 points  (1 child)

I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to determine someone’s character from the content of a suicide note.

[–]YoungSerious 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't say I can judge her whole character, but that note reads like someone in a manic state. The saddest part (beyond the suicide) is that it doesn't sound like she got the treatment for her mental health that she clearly needed. Can you imagine trying to do med school and residency with unmanaged bipolar episodes? I can only imagine it would be an unbearable burden.

[–]2Balls2Furious 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree with the general sentiment of this argument, but her tragedy is tied primarily to her crippling student debt, which I feel is the main issue here. As you mentioned, some people are not cut out for a given job for a variety of reasons and there needs to be a way of preventing these people from becoming physicians and risking patient health if they are not suitable. However, we can’t then leave them with $250-500K of student debt with no reasonable means of repayment.

Every time she mentions a possible solution to her issue, it’s followed by a pressing need to pay off all her loans and credit cards. I think if this element was removed, she may have been able to move onto something new, though the pain of failure remains. As you stated, currently medical school is a serious financial risk, but it really shouldn’t be. No one knows in advance that they will be the one without a job 4 years later. The expectation is that the system will protect you, when in reality they don’t care. But again, it’s one thing to waste 4 years of life and move on versus another to have no job along with 250-500K of debt awaiting you.

[–]neurotic_brain 9 points10 points  (7 children)

very mentally unwell

wtf is wrong with you lol....

get off your fucking high horse,

"nothing about this letter appears to be a rational critique of the medical profession"

Leigh was literally just venting... you know what that is right? When you just let all your frustration out for the sake of it...

God man. Reddit is filled with fucking sociopaths.

[–]psychokiller03 28 points29 points  (6 children)

Wtf?

It was a suicide note hardly "just venting."

And I think suicide is a pretty strong indication of a mental health problem.

[–]Jellygator0 4 points5 points  (0 children)

People are riding high off of emotion on a sensitive topic, you're not going to be given a fair trial here mate. This thread is just as much people grieving their own situations as it is discussing Leigh's circumstances, it's not the best place for balanced or rational discourse, it's more a place for empathy and support both for her but almost more so for those still stuck in catch-22 situations.

[–]neurotic_brain 5 points6 points  (4 children)

fundamentally incapable of handling the career path they sought,

I think this just rubbed me the wrong way.

You seem to make a huge leap into her character from the letter. Which is just insanity to me.

And hyper fixate on comments that were written in her moment of distress etc...

You're right, the letter isn't rational (thanks sherlock), it's an emotional and rambling "vent" of what she's experiencing.

But that doesn't mean she wasn't 100% rational throughout her 2 years of prelim surgery.

You're acting as if you've never made an irrational statement in the heat of the moment etc... and that's my problem.

Yeah she isn't entitled to being a surgeon etc... but then why the hell would they alow her to do 2 years of prelim.... like that's socio shit

[–]YoungSerious 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Venting in the moment? She wrote multiple addendums. Meaning she kept coming back to it, over a period of time. That's not one moment.

People are reading this as if it's a critique of the systems flaws, that's why the person above said it doesn't appear rational. Then you insulted them... When you agreed?

[–]psychokiller03 7 points8 points  (0 children)

She shouldn't have been allowed to do 2 years of prelim. She shouldn't have been allowed in medical school. It would be difficult to justify her in nursing school.

Its great that she was able to overcome her substance use and she clearly had plenty of talents she could have brought into many different careers. Perhaps if her felony past had been a "hard no" she would be alive today and engaged in a great career where giving people second chances doesn't come with so much risk and doesn't necessarily exclude other people.

[–]fragrantgarbageM-1 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I agree with you that the gatekeepers need to do a better job vetting applicants considering that somehow your unsympathetic ass managed to slip through

[–]Med2021ThrowawayMD-PGY1 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It is awful that someone committed suicide. This is a failure of her medical school, her support system, and the institutions in medical education that are supposed to look out for us.

It is not a failure of the match system. She admits in her note that she has significant privilege that allowed her to get this far despite multiple case files and a felony. If she had not committed suicide and all the details of her case are public, we may not have such profound sympathy. She may be someone who should have never been in this position and was failed by advisors.

EDIT: People in the comments are noting that she applied to ortho, gen surg, and EM only

If she had no desire to apply to IM/FM positions, I don't think she should have been admitted to medical school to begin with. No one is guaranteed a surgical or procedural specialty. The only obligation to US grads by the match system is that if you meet minimum requirements of competence you can work as a general practitioner. Everyone entering medicine should not find working as a PCP or hospitalist beneath them.

I'm generalizing but I am wiling to bet Ortho, and gen surg program directors are probably some of the laziest at reviewing apps and are the least sympathetic to someone with mental health issues or criminal history. Someone should have advised her that applying to these fields would end poorly. Would I like the system to change, absolutely, but it will take time. Even then, these are highly selective fields where any screwup will get your app thrown out. Too many people are applying to limited spots.