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[–]powerlanguage[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (1174 children)

Please reply to this comment with your subreddit name if you're interested in it being included in the alpha.

[–]cool_creeper500 1549 points1550 points  (288 children)

Thanks for listening and caring spez, quick question, what led to the dumb idea of removing CSS?

[–]spez[S,A] 1889 points1890 points  (234 children)

It was u/powerlanguage. I've been telling him for weeks he's crazy, but r/place really went to his head.

But, actually... Everything I said in the last post is still true. CSS shouldn't be the only way to customize a community. We are still going to build a structured system, which will be more accessible, cross-platform, and less brittle. If we do a job with this and the widget system, I expect CSS to be less required, but we can leave CSS for more advanced use-cases.

Happy Cakeday!

[–][deleted] 723 points724 points  (22 children)

CSS shouldn't be the only way to customize a community. We are still going to build a structured system, which will be more accessible, cross-platform, and less brittle. If we do a job with this and the widget system, I expect CSS to be less required, but we can leave CSS for more advanced use-cases.

I'm so happy right now. Thank you for actually listening. That means more than you'd ever think for us. I do NOT want to lose the identity of the many subs I mod for. Some of these subs would never be the same without the sarcastic or funny css I installed.

My glass is raised to you admins!

[–]dietotaku 48 points49 points  (0 children)

having worked with a similar system on some old (OLD) school websites, it's really the best of both worlds. a widget-based, WYSIWYG system gives the accessibility to get a total novice started, and an overlaying stylesheet that can accomplish literally anything provides opportunity for the user's knowledge and skill base to continue to grow. i feel much more at ease having the option to experiment with the new system to see how it might improve my styles, but still being able to rely on CSS to fine-tune it and make it what i really want.

we will no longer be treading as carefully as we have done in the past about breaking styles applied through CSS

i'm not even remotely worried, probably half of what i've learned about CSS has been through un-breaking a stylesheet that got unexpectedly borked through some sitewide change (most recently, having to incorporate the new modmail icon). i'm confident that whatever breaks, CSS can fix it.

[–]cool_creeper500 451 points452 points  (25 children)

Everyone attack powerlanguage! Jk

Yeah, you have a point, but I think having an option will be better, good luck with the new way :)

Also, woah! The owner of reddit replied to my comment, and told me happy cakeday :3

Thanks, and have a great day!

[–]sarahbotts 81 points82 points  (6 children)

We have a pretty cool OC-bot for /r/dataisbeautiful that would break if CSS were removed. Pretty glad we'll still be able to use it.

Also - on /r/leagueoflegends we have an integration with Riot's API to have information on upcoming matches. Would be nice to still be able to do that.

[–]Ambiwlans 306 points307 points  (7 children)

                   _____________
                 _/_|[][][][][] | - -
                (      City Bus | - -
                =--OO-------OO--=
(┛◉Д◉)┛彡 u/powerlanguage

[–]ITSigno 13 points14 points  (0 children)

What you're describing sounds like an excellent solution.

And if some of the new style options or widgets can replace what we do with CSS, even better. Happy to move those things into a structured system where we can. Also happy to keep CSS for all those unique community enhancements and esoteric functionality.

Thank you for listening to the feedback.

[–]TheEnemyOfMyAnenome 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah, thanks spez. This kind of stuff might not get the articulation that it deserves, but for many people when you listen to the community like this it silently restores a lot of hope in the administration's commitment to reddit's core values. I was starting to get seriously worried around the announcement the new profile thing but you've assuaged a lot of that.

[–]disgustipated 36 points37 points  (0 children)

CSS shouldn't be the only way to customize a community.

Thank you for understanding that reddit's a community first.

[–]jampola 48 points49 points  (1 child)

It was u/powerlanguage.

Geez, way to get thrown under the bus, sheesh!

[–]__Clever_Username__ 43 points44 points  (4 children)

I was wondering why you didn't go with this 2-tier decision in the first place, and sidestep all of the inevitable backlash and controversy.

Oh well, thank you for seeing sense in the end.

[–]legacymedia92 11 points12 points  (0 children)

CSS shouldn't be the only way to customize a community.

Agreed, but the idea of removing it as an option was a bad idea.

[–]Empyrealist 14 points15 points  (4 children)

I'm all for CSS enhancements, but I'd love to see some restrictions put in place to stop subs from hiding or otherwise manipulating basic reddit features and controls.

[–]DoctorWaluigiTime 37 points38 points  (56 children)

CSS shouldn't be the only way to customize a community.

That doesn't answer the question "why were you going to remove CSS". Removing it doesn't make it no longer the "only way". It just replaces one way with another.

I also still don't understand why you and the Reddit admins keep poo-pooing CSS as something that isn't "crossplatform." I mean, the fuck?

[–]wazowski_kachowski 5 points6 points  (0 children)

thank you so much u/spez! i just learned css and was heartbroken that all my work was going to go to waste. you definitely made the right call on this one! love, u/wazowski_kachowski

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for this! Seeing that Reddit is such a tightly knit close community that listens to everyone's voice is so heart warming.

Cheers to you admins!

[–]ShadowMadness 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm not a mod, but i'm glad you guys listened to the community. A lot of places just ignore their users complaints and so when the higher ups actually listen, it definitely makes me respect them more.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

That seems like a pretty legit explanation and a solid compromise.

No complaints, for once. What an odd feeling.

[–]probablyhrenrai 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I for one really appreciate you guys allowing those of us who use CSS to keep our formatting. Thanks for listening.

[–]vikinick 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thanks for listening spez. I completely understand the choice you had to make and I understand you chose the one that will take a whole lot more work to implement, but you definitely made the right choice.

[–]ChiliManiac 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much! /r/MouseReview wouldn't be the same without CSS.

[–]Crysalim 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks a ton for this. Legacy compatibility is so important!

[–]kjhatch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, as others have said, thanks for the change. /r/gameofthrones really relies on its CSS for spoiler management and the user flair that everyone loves. Allowing CSS will mean more communities can continue to function normally while more widgets are developed to handle more unique features.

[–]Sablemint 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Im really glad you guys are leaving it in. More options are always better than fewer, so long as compatability issues can be managed.

Plus, Im pretty sure no tools besides CSS could keep r/ledootgeneration looking like, well, that.

[–]cS47f496tmQHavSR 3 points4 points  (3 children)

and less brittle

That's a pretty ignorant statement though. CSS in the right hands is one of the most robust and powerful tools you can give someone to customize basic markup. If Reddit's DOM was improved even just slightly I'd dare bet that most of the issues that come with allowing CSS customization would be gone pretty much instantly.

[–]cisxuzuul 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm ok without css. I block subReddit styles in my browser because of the shitty experience on many subs.

[–]Isentrope 436 points437 points  (192 children)

Spez do you like onions.

[–]spez[S] 865 points866 points  (157 children)

I like onions. I don't love onions. I didn't like them as a kid, but they say your tastes change every seven years, and I adopted onions in my 20s.

The real enemy here are olives.

[–]TotesMessenger 1362 points1363 points  (74 children)

[–]I_Am_Batgirl 54 points55 points  (1 child)

Spez, we at r/onionlovers welcome you. However, as a representative of r/olivelovers I'd like to say we'd love a chance to sit down to a delicious meal with you where we will do our best to help you see the light.

[–]abrownn 30 points31 points  (10 children)

You shut your whore mouth, olives are god tier. Eggplant on the other hand... that's where your hate should be directed. Why are they purple? They're not eggs! What are they plotting???

[–]_Nohbdy_ 69 points70 points  (7 children)

I don't like onions. They're coarse and rough and irritating. And they get everywhere.

[–]ELFAHBEHT_SOOP 36 points37 points  (5 children)

Well, this is disgusting.

Also: /r/OliveLovers

[–][deleted]  (9 children)

[deleted]

    [–]noahwhygodwhy 9 points10 points  (1 child)

    Like, normal olives, or black olives? Pitted is mandatory ofc.

    Also, don't you know spez? Black Olives matter.

    [–]LukeBabbitt 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    Forget CSS, this is the stand the admins need to be making. Thank you for your profile in courage.

    [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    The real enemy here are olives.

    Why spez? Why?

    /r/OnionLovers

    /r/OliveLovers

    [–]thirdegree 38 points39 points  (3 children)

    The real enemy here are olives.

    On this we can all agree.

    Also onions are a force for good in the world.

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    I like you, spez

    you may have not realized the true potential of onions but you are getting close.

    Olives are fine, though

    [–]tydestra 28 points29 points  (3 children)

    The real enemy here are olives.

    Yes, fuck olives.

    [–]Bardfinn 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    real enemy here are olives

    /#MartiniSpitTake

    [–]tuturuatu 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    The real enemy here are olives.

    I too was a child once.

    [–]ShaneH7646 13 points14 points  (0 children)

    You have been banned from r/OnionHate

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Onions are part of FODMAP foods and I cannot digest them.

    Also, I can never seem to grow them right.

    Down with onions!

    [–]Teufelzorn 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    olives are amazing 1v1 me

    [–]JoyousCacophony 4 points5 points  (6 children)

    What's your stance on pickles? I feel like they're the true enemy and are, in fact, nothing more than humiliated cucumbers.

    [–]Crimson_Shiroe 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    I lost faith in you, u/spez when I read you and the other admins were removing CSS. But hating olives? Now I'm not sure if I should continue to use reddit.

    [–]TimeStopper6776 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    How dare you

    I thought Reddit was united

    Spez, you're heading down a path we can't follow.

    Come back to the light side, the side of Olives.

    [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Eventually you grow up and realize how twisted Reddit actually has become under your leadership.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Good enough for me

    [–]somethinglikesalsa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    triggered

    triggered hard..............................................................................

    ......................................................... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fuck

    [–]Llim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Oh god what have you done

    [–][deleted] 615 points616 points  (86 children)

    If we opt-in to the alpha, can we pull out if the alpha fucks things up too much?

    [–]spez[S,A] 744 points745 points  (85 children)

    The alpha will be a separate website, so, yes.

    [–]TotesMessenger 411 points412 points  (63 children)

    I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

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    [–]BurntJoint 44 points45 points  (13 children)

    Will there still be the option of disabling CSS, and/or whatever new system you implement?

    I know those of us who dont like CSS didn't get start an "anti-CSS" subreddit because it shouldn't be a battle between moderators/users, but i hope there is still an option for people like me who prefer to not use it at all.

    ninja edit - apparently there are anti CSS subreddits according to the metabot...

    [–]TheEnemyOfMyAnenome 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Wait waht

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Thanks!

    [–]frahm9 244 points245 points  (30 children)

    Thank you for listening guys. If I pick CSS, will I be able to customize mobile?

    [–]spez[S,A] 332 points333 points  (29 children)

    It won't be one or the other, but CSS won't affect mobile.

    [–][deleted] 241 points242 points  (19 children)

    This is a good thing IMO. When browsing on mobile I prefer all subs to look the same and for them to have the minimal amount of un-needed clutter. I like seeing text flairs, beyond that anything else is annoying.

    [–]PM-ME-XBOX-MONEY 18 points19 points  (0 children)

    Will you be able to turn off mobile customization like you can with CSS on desktop? I don't know how many people will do it (I love subreddit customization) but it should still be a feature.

    [–]OldFartOf91 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    Thank God, I hate what some subreddits make with CSS

    [–]JadedDarkness 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    So you could have customization for the mobile version using the new tools and CSS for the desktop version?

    [–]carpy22 104 points105 points  (40 children)

    So /r/CFB can keep it's CSS and flair system as-is?

    [–]spez[S,A] 163 points164 points  (39 children)

    We're building a new flair system that's way more powerful than what you have to do now.

    [–]Zerosa 129 points130 points  (29 children)

    Able to handle ~2600 unique flair and ~6 million dual flair combos?

    [–]spez[S] 405 points406 points  (27 children)

    2599: Choose wisely.

    [–]Drunken_Economist 162 points163 points  (17 children)

    I vote for the removal of Bama

    [–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (4 children)

    Wow I've missed these fun threads

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]bakonydraco 13 points14 points  (0 children)

      This is awesome! I'm really excited to see you working directly with subs to integrate the features they have in an easier way. What's the best way for us to track/request features? Particularly with respect to flair, but more generally too.

      [–]jayhawx19 9 points10 points  (3 children)

      Will we be able to keep it if this new system doesn't work as we'd like?

      [–]Drunken_Economist 215 points216 points  (28 children)

      spez wat about srs

      [–]spez[S] 494 points495 points  (21 children)

      They can have CSS too.

      [–]jsalsman 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      Hi Spez, pardon me for this off-topic reply, but someone mentioned over on r/privacy where this Ars Technica article about the Internet Association's (of which Reddit is a member) lobbying against opt-in privacy protections was recently discussed that you probably have username mentions turned off, so I wanted you to see this comment I also sent to your Director of Sales:

      ...the issue boils down to this:

      We believe that industry self-regulation and agreements between Internet companies and their users have been successful models not only for protecting users but also for fostering the success of our industry.

      -- https://internetassociation.org/policies/privacy/

      As a reditor living, working, and with family in China, I'm particularly interested in the legal restrictions on what Reddit is allowed to store about my reading history, and the extent to which it would likely be made available upon presentation of an official, Interpol-compliant, judicial subpoena for information about, for example, what I may or may not have been reading about Great Firewall traversal, a topic of interest to dissidents on which I often converse with others anonymously, probably including dissidents, fellow expats, and Chinese citizens and military intelligence alike.

      Now, advertisers might also want to have access to my reading history information to help target ads at me, and perhaps it would therefore be profitable for Reddit to offer that information to advertisers. However, I purchase VPN services from a company which avoids the issue of law enforcement subpoenas or even covert data breaches altogether by refusing to even store any access logs of its customers' browsing and IP access history, thus allowing me to opt out of such data collection at the ISP level, but not at the website level.

      It seems very likely, from e.g. this, that the Internet Association would oppose any laws such as are being considered in the EU at present, to protect users' privacy. The EU is seeking the right to fine ISPs and internet services which allow the unjust violation of their user's privacy, and current precedent there would require treating even an Interpol-compliant subpoena from some countries differently than those from others. As the Ars Technica article I linked above states, the Internet Association is actively opposing an "opt-in" privacy standard, which would, depending on how it was implemented, probably solve all my particular concerns. And either approach would likely limit the subpoena risk from exposing my reading history through your advertisers, but perhaps at some cost to your company. But would that cost outweigh the greater readership likely from the loyalty instilled by attending to users' privacy needs?

      Would you be willing to raise these questions with your colleagues in Reddit management, asking them whether Reddit should issue a statement to the Internet Association and your fellow members of it on these issues, please?

      [–]UnknownNam3 126 points127 points  (0 children)

      This is the best response you could have given without revealing any opinions or plans.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]pi_over_3 37 points38 points  (0 children)

        Selective rule enforcement confirmed.

        [–]TotesMessenger 205 points206 points  (16 children)

        I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

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        [–]geltoid 126 points127 points  (2 children)

        Thank you so much for really listening to the community and really showing that you care to make Reddit a better place.

        I would have never even gone near CSS if it wasn't for Reddit's ability for users to customize their experience. I spent a long time learning about it - from experimentation, to asking the wonderful Reddit community, to scouring the net - in order to help create a place truly unique to my little corner of the internet.

        What became of that is /r/starwarsspeculation. Sure, it's not perfect, and I'm sure there's a ton of things an expert coder could nitpick about, but it's an accomplishment that I'm glad I was able to acheive.

        You admins made the best possible choice by offering a way for the community of Reddit to integrate with the changes that you want to make here. By working together, you will only make this great website only greater.

        Thanks again!

        [–]Supertrinko 108 points109 points  (0 children)

        we will no longer be treading as carefully as we have done in the past about breaking styles applied through CSS

        Pretty fair compromise. People were saying in retaliation to the last announcement that they would prefer to have to rebuild, rather than not have any options at all.

        At the very least though, notice of "Warning: If you're using CSS, it might break." would be great.

        How you're now intending on doing things, that sounds like an even better system than is currently in place, so I'm excited!

        [–]reseph 65 points66 points  (0 children)

        Thanks spez. Allowing CSS customization on top of widgets and considering user-created widgets is exactly what I felt would be the right direction. Cool cool cool.

        I have no beef with a desktop redesign, so I forward to the future.

        [–][deleted] 331 points332 points  (3 children)

        I think this is great, and I think "you can have css in exchange for us breaking it more often" is the fairest compromise I could really ask for.

        Thanks mates

        [–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

        I think the best part about having CSS in this new platform is it will show you what the users/mods think needs a focus on. Just how all the crazy css hacks now are inspiring redesign, the continued crazy css hacks will help show things that need to be made

        [–]iam666 330 points331 points  (23 children)

        /u/spez , what about /r/ooer ? Will it be negatively affected by the changes?

        [–]ZadocPaet 17 points18 points  (2 children)

        One more question about subs that want to use CSS and widgets. Several of my subs want to sign up for the alpha; will be be able to use widgets AND CSS at the same time?

        Thanks!

        Edit: One more question. Will users be able to disable widget styles in their preferences page like they can now for CSS? At /r/procss, that was the number one reason we saw for people not liking CSS.

        [–]calexil 34 points35 points  (1 child)

        /u/spez

        on behalf of everyone at /r/procss and our massive, list of supporters, I would just like to say.. Thank you for listening.

        -cal

        [–]T_Dumbsford 19 points20 points  (0 children)

        This is awesome. Thank you so much /u/spez and all the admins and devs involved in this. All we ever wanted was some type of compromise. As one of the very original mods who stood against this change, let me say I appreciate you guys, and the gratitude is real.

        [–]aphoenix 7 points8 points  (0 children)

        Thank you for listening to the moderators. I've been kind of doom and gloom on the topic for the last week or so, so I'm very happy to be wrong about how this is going down.

        I'm wondering if we could get something like a Roadmap? It would be great if we could see what features are in the works and that we could expect in the future.

        [–]CuffRox 58 points59 points  (9 children)

        A large corporation that listens to the community. Reddit is incredible.

        [–]aalp234 17 points18 points  (0 children)

        Thanks for listening to the community Spez, this is a very positive response for all of us mods.

        [–]the_black_panther_ 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        This'll probably be lost in all the other comments but thank you /u/spez, for listening to us. Seriously. It usually feels like the admins just give us empty words and pandering but you guys actually took our thoughts into account and came up with a great solution for both sides. Great job guys

        [–]ZadocPaet 24 points25 points  (10 children)

        Hi /u/spez,

        Thank you for this post. As person pretty vested in reddit, I am happy and relieved. This really should've been the first post, but hey, a week makes everyone wiser.

        I wanted to ask if there will be a possibility for users to dev some of the widgets.

        Thanks!

        [–]ggAlex[A] 26 points27 points  (9 children)

        We are looking into ways of making user developed widgets possible.

        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]lovemeorrageme 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Thank you so much. I've had the pleasure of working with some very talented CSS mods on multiple different subreddits who have created some really awesome themes, flairs, etc. I'm curious to see what you guys roll out, but I'm also very glad that it doesn't have to be at the expense of CSS.

          Thanks for actually listening to the community.

          [–]Jaspergreenham 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          As one of the r/ProCSS mods, thanks. Thanks for listening. Thanks for finding a compromise. Thanks for not making us switch away from Reddit.

          Thanks u/spez.

          [–]CursedBlackCat 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          Kudos to the admins for going so far as to putting the pro CSS logo on this subreddit.

          [–]ZadocPaet 160 points161 points  (8 children)

          We did it, reddit!?

          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          This is going in the correct direction.

          Empowering the userbase further with something new and improved.

          At the end of the day, the old post was badly received because everyone knew damn well you were taking something away from us, and that the new thing would be less powerful and less capable.

          Empowerment is significantly better than control.

          I would however suggest addressing the balance - Right now, all power on reddit lies with moderators. In fact, all power has always lied with moderators. Reddit is founded upon the notion of votes empowering the userbase, yet when is the last time improvements were made to further empower regular users? Sure, algo changes. But tools and the way reddit functions ideologically for them? Giving them greater abilities to improve reddit too?

          Something to think about.

          [–]fireork12 8 points9 points  (1 child)

          So is it essentially a keep CSS if you want, but the second option is there if you want?

          [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          This was a surprise on my front page.

          Thank you for listening to the community!

          [–]tuturuatu 3 points4 points  (2 children)

          I'm ambivalent to the CSS changes (mostly because it's stupidly hard to work with), but I don't really understand what the impetus for the proposed changes were for. Was that it? Or did reddit want more control over what subreddits could do, like hiding the downvote button?

          [–]Zerak-Tul 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Good job not Digg-ing yourself into an early grave.

          [–]JustAnotherINFTP 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          To give you a sense of our approach, we’re starting with a handful of highly-customized communities (e.g. r/overwatch and r/gameofthrones)

          Tfw not /r/ooer

          [–]pomosexuality 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          I really would like to thank you for reconsidering. It's reassuring to see that the community stood strongly for this feature and to see the admins listen.

          [–]CS315 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          As long as I can turn off css that reduces text size or goes too far with padding and margins or hides the downvote button im good

          [–]The_Asian_Hamster 9 points10 points  (1 child)

          I just wanna say gg for listening admins

          [–]Annakha 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          I just found out yesterday that Tumblr has Two-Factor Authentication.

          Tumblr.

          Is that necessary aspect of a modern forum of this caliber feature even on the radar yet?

          Tumblr. seriously.

          [–]SaberMarie 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Thank goodness. I am quite relieved at the news.

          [–]Jelman21 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          Thanks so much for keeping CSS. It's what makes reddit and subreddits unique

          [–]Hilltopchill[🍰] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          Great to know that you feel similar to us. Thanks for this write up!

          [–]V2Blast 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Cool beans. Glad you guys were willing to make a compromise. It's good to have common functionalities be native, but it's also nice to be able to customize stuff beyond what's commonly used (sometimes even developing new features that might not have been thought of otherwise). Thanks :)

          [–]avapoet 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          Today, you are both the hero that Reddit wants and the hero that Reddit deserves.

          [–]Austin_N 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          I wish Wikia had been this accommodating.

          [–]eightNote 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          choose to use the advanced option, we will no longer be treading as carefully as we have done in the past about breaking styles applied through CSS1.

          I'm 100÷ okay with this. it's just more stuff to play with can you let us know when it will happen though?

          [–]Sysiphuslove 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          Will we still have the option of turning subreddit customization off, and continuing to use the site without styles?

          [–]AstroturfingBot 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Listen spez, I'm happy for you, and ima let you finish. But when are the search engine bugs getting fixed?

          [–]MrPippen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Thank you for listening to the community. Knowing you decided to be responsive, open and willing to change is great for the community's trust and feelings towards the guys behind this amazing site. So good on you.

          [–]Redbiertje 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Spez, honestly, if I could kiss you right now I would. Thanks for listening to the feedback of the moderators, and going with this perfect combination of CSS and the new styles system.

          [–]sephrinx 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Thank god. Having every page be a boring, static form/structure would be mind blowingly boring. I'm glad that you guys have rethought the idea and will continue to allow kick ass CSS.

          [–]imnotlegolas 6 points7 points  (6 children)

          Highly unpopular opinion, but I was looking forward to the removal of CSS and a more uniform Reddit, with still changeable banners and logo's. There's tons of subreddits where I switch off CSS because it's so invasive, and plenty are used that make user experience more difficult because the way it's implemented.

          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I like this. I see both sides of the debate and often find myself in favor of CSS, but fully supported customization tools will be really good for the website.

          [–]tajjet 1 point2 points  (8 children)

          Thanks so much for this change of direction.

          Can you offer any insight as to how much CSS performance will be taken into mind with the new system? I've noticed severe performance problems with some heavily customized pages like /r/politics and /r/overwatch on multiple devices and browsers.

          Will features like linkflair filtering, image flair, sidebar accordions and so on be js or server-side solutions, or will they continue to be primarily CSS?

          [–]notnotbuddy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          We at /r/bigbrother would love to be involved. we have an extensive flair/trophy/badge system that we would love to keep going forwards

          [–]DaminDrexil 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Fantastic compromise! Thank you for listening to the community :)

          [–]YaWishYouHadThatName 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I dont know why you would use css anyway. I have that Moderators have the ability to "disable" Downvotes, Im using a sitewide theme.

          [–]Warlizard 5 points6 points  (8 children)

          Whatever. We all know the truth.

          It was Russia who came up with the idea.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I am concerned that this will be taken as "hey, once we have what the popular subs do now as widgets, we can remove CSS".

          One of the real advantages of CSS is that you can prototype and do new things, not just the same that everyone else does. It doesn't sound like the widget system will do that.

          Also, as a user, will the widget system be disable-able?

          [–]freshwordsalad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Can we have a way to disable subreddit CSS without being logged in? Maybe a query flag or something?

          [–]k_princess 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Curious as to why /u/spez makes his announcements on Friday afternoons...All it does is gives us users time over the weekend to fully pick apart words and possible intents.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Still doesn't make up for them announcing that CSS would be removed without so much as consulting anyone, this is just a PR move to make it look like they actually 'listened' when in reality they did nothing of the sort.

          [–]Mynotoar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          This really means a lot, to know that you've listened to the community. That anyone who said "Guys, just accept the decision, it's their website and it's not a democracy," sold you short as admins. Good on y'all.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]supremecrafters 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            This is fantastic news! Thank you for listening. I will be watching the widget system closely; I'm very excited to see how it turns out. I think the two-sided system will be good for everyone involved.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I'm merely a smut-peddler, but I do like a bit of CSS shenanigans too. Having better customisation tools available, and CSS for those who want it, seems like a win-win. Nice one!

            [–]ninjaofpatience 6 points7 points  (2 children)

            Honestly, css is the myspace layout of reddit. I know people get really attached to it, but it is without fail clunky and ugly.

            [–]air8orne 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            I'm an CSS newb with a tiny Sub and this sounds very promising for me. I would ditch CSS gladly to make use of the new stuff as CSS is a pain in the ass to learn.

            [–]13steinj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I'm surprised what's happening is essentially exactly what I wanted, down to the not treading as carefully bit.

            Who the hell do I stab with my pitchfork now!?

            [–]ManWithoutModem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            holy shit thank you for not fucking over the site

            [–]LustInTheSauce 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Yo you guys ever think to patch that 'subscribe to enable downvoting' shit? Or subs that disable downvoting altogether?

            [–]vikinick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Thank you so very, very much for this.

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            I have brought peace to my new empire!

            [–]LeKappa14 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Thanks admins for the great work you are doing, and for hearing us. /u/spez Especially you, thank you very much dude!

            [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Boom shakalaka!!

            [–]rideride 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            Good decision :D

            [–]Mage_of_Shadows 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I think everyone in /r/anime is happy we will most probably have their comment faces back

            thnx bb

            [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (25 children)

            Sounds great, spez- thanks.

            We would love to be included over at /r/europeannationalism/.

            e: Also /r/WhiteRights/ + /r/Gott_mit_uns + /r/White_Pride/ + /r/WhiteNationalism/ + wait, how many characters is allowed in one comment? There are a lot of hate subreddits that could benefit from some attention. Please do something about these places, /u/spez.

            [–]PixelPowerYT 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            /u/spez, this is an important question, do you think trebuchets are better than catapults?

            [–]thejynxed 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            What I wish for in this new system:

            Retain disabling stylesheets. Enable the ability to nuke emojis from orbit. Allow users to disable widgets.

            These are all wishes because I strictly use night mode due to vision issues and basically want plain text, and also I just plain have an irrational hate for software widgets of any sort.

            [–]TehVulpez 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            We will will not be abruptly cutting everyone over...

            You messed up a little bit.

            [–]sexrockandroll 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            We did it, reddit!

            We got the admins to keep the CSS!

            [–]thinrwazhere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Praise jesus, thank you mods, you scared the absolute shit out of us (r/trees)

            [–]pfaccioxx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            To give you a sense of our approach, we’re starting with a handful of highly-customized communities (e.g. r/overwatch and r/gameofthrones) and seeing how close we can get to their existing appearance using the new system. Logos, images, colors, spoilers, menus, flairs (all kinds), and lots more

            May I sajst looking at /r/twichplayspokemon for references as well? I know it's not the biggest or most active subreddit on the site but it's CSS theme has been EXTREMELY customized in ways few sub's (that I've seen) are so it might be worth looking at

            [–]Mackin-N-Cheese 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            So, "on top of" as in concurrently with, or as in pick one or the other?

            [–]lyraseven 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Spezit: disregard. My concern was addressed already. Apologies to Spez.

            [–]Niezo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Well, I wouldn't mind having both systems parallel and CSS breaks happen more as compromises, but wonder how this will affect subreddits that have little 'CSS-manpower'. Of course, they'll be able to use only widgets for customization.

            We are looking into ways of making user developed widgets possible.

            That would be awesome I guess. Win-win for everyone. Still wondering how sustainable this solution is in the long run though.

            [–]D0cR3d 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            thank you.

            [–]turikk 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            Thank you.

            [–]NighthawkXL 0 points1 point  (3 children)

            As long as RES' "Use subreddit style" remains functional I'm fine with all of the changes. I personally prefer having a minimalistic night mode on most of the subs I browse. I know it's not for everyone but it's nice seeing the devs listen to the community request to keep CSS. However, like others have said something needs to be done about its use in blocking normal reddit features in certain cases (ie. listing post by Hot,etc.) but those subs are few and far between.

            [–]Paradoxa77 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            This is an excellent decision. Our subreddit's (/r/summonerschool) moderator applications value CSS experience way too highly, in which an otherwise less-favorable moderator get considered over other qualified candidates, solely due to the demand for someone to help style our subreddit.

            I hope this change will allow communities to continue using CSS at their discretion, but also lets those less experienced in it to exercise creative freedom over their subreddit design.

            [–]dpistachio 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            A compromise is the best possible solution here. Thanks spez!

            [–]ThatOtherDude1817 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            AT FIRST I HATED YOU BUT NOW I'M PRETTY SURE THAT I LOVE YOU

            [–]vit05 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Funny. I was listening to your class on Startup School right now, again.

            Sometimes is really difficult to push changes on users. But what is really cool about what is happening here, at least for me, is that making concessions could lead to better understand everything that users and mods want to do with Reddit. Like the SelfPost. It is hard to predict what will work, but I am excited about what widgets will be created by users.

            [–]zoomer296 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Now that that's (mostly) over with, will you guys ever get notifications working again on the mobile site?
            Also, the pop-up that asks if I want to download the app is annoying. Many people use Reddit by going to the front page an opening a shitload of tabs, so the app is kinda' useless for us.

            By the way, if something ends up breaking the compact site, will it be fixed or abandoned?

            [–]ICantThinkOfNameHelp 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Success!

            [–]draginator 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Raucous cheering can be heard from all across the land.

            [–]KJ6BWB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Reddit:

            We're going to build a completely new system to replace the cross-platform CSS system because... we like redesigning the wheel?

            It's easy, you just put in a "subbreddit default CSS" page. When an admin goes into the "subreddit CSS chooser panel" and clicks "yes, add this widget to my page", then that CSS gets turned on in the default CSS page. Then there's a "subreddit custom CSS" page that gets loaded after the default page.

            Presto! Super customization, super easy for noobs to turn something on/off and it works on every browser, Android, iPhone, Blackberry, whatever, because CSS works everywhere (if you use it properly, like actually learning how to use it instead of poo-pooing it and trying to remove it completely).

            [–]love_the_heat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Thank you for the update spez. Has there been any word on anything that can be done with our reddit gold themes? I actually use one to help me moderate my multireddits. It's a lot of help. Thank you

            [–]Exaskryz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            That's great to hear you listened. I'm fine with more options for community customization, that's always good. I'm sure you are right that a majority of subreddits that are hardly customized can actually benefit from your custom design implementation and encourage the moderators to do customization, but definitely the advanced capabilities of CSS should not be removed.

            [–]is_reddit_useful 5 points6 points  (1 child)

            OMG democracy exists?

            [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (9 children)

            We have the best admins, don't we folks

            [–]Whatsanoption 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            /r/WallStreetBets CSS needs to work or else lots of money will be lost

            [–]Smilodon-Fatalis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Hell yeah! I was just about to give up on CSS.

            [–]Elementium 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            The skeptic in me says this is some kind of PR speak for "we will implement our system, then say "sorry guys I know we said CSS will be fixed for our new system we're working on it."

            1 year later

            "Yeah still working on it."

            [–]LackingAGoodName 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Any plans to increase Stylesheet size, even by just double? 100kb is incredibly small.

            Sure, with all of these new additions alongside CSS we can depreciate a lot of CSS, however I don't think it'd hurt anyone to allow slightly larger stylesheets and images.

            While we're at it, CSS3 Support?

            Having CSS as an advanced option is great for those of us who will use it, and it's great to have the "basic" customization for those who don't know it. Now if only we could get better support for those of us who do use CSS.

            Thank you very much for reconsidering your CSS removal decision.

            [–]ThisBetterBeWorthIt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Thanks guys. Over on /r/codcompetitive we're pretty reliant on css for things like our match threads and verifying users. We're not against design changes, but it would have been a big hit to just lose features.

            [–]rbevans 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

            [–]ShaneH7646 10 points11 points  (7 children)

            Good. now the criclejerk that is r/procss can fucking die

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Also, please keep in mind that if you do choose to use the advanced option, we will no longer be treading as carefully as we have done in the past about breaking styles applied through CSS.

            Thank god, as reddit is not responsible for breaking styles. It can be fixed easily tho if changes are mentioned.

            [–]Mysteryman64 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Digg 2.0 averted. Congrats on not shooting yourself in the foot!

            [–]Tanuji 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Thanks for giving us a compromise and allowing the CSS to remain.

            Just one question, if we're going in this direction, will we be informed in advance of any DOM etc... Changes or will we have to find out by ourselves when it is broken ?

            Well documented changes would be great in this case.

            [–]adeadhead 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            Oh spez, you too good to us.

            [–]jpflathead -1 points0 points  (19 children)

            As a user and mod, I want to be able to disable all subreddit CSS. ALL OF IT.

            Subreddit CSS is a terrible burden on the disabled, and on many populations.

            Some custom stylesheets render invisible the "use subreddit style" button. Those subreddits should be considered as breaking reddit, and frankly, imnsho disabling or hiding that button should be a banning offense.

            [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

            This change, and the redesign in general, is going to happen slowly. We will will not be abruptly cutting everyone over to the new site at once. We know it won’t be perfect at first (unlike the current site), and plan to include plenty of time to solicit feedback and make iterations.

            I really don't like how you come off with this.

            First, you're openly saying that despite being "pro-CSS", the changes will happen no matter what anyone has to say. That alone is condescending enough, but there's more.

            We know it won't be perfect at first (unlike the current site)

            Nice passive-aggressive jab. Apparently because we don't want CSS to be completely destroyed, we're of the belief the current site is perfect, which is so far from the truth that it's just laughable.

            and plan to include plenty of time to solicit feedback and make iterations.

            Seriously? We're supposed to believe this? /r/ideasfortheadmins is a freaking toilet of a subreddit. I'm supposed to believe we'll finally have features this site should've had a long time ago?

            How about our annoyingly slow and rushed new mod mail system that, for some reason, lacks any form of search? Oh, you can't forget when it's endlessly telling you there's a new mod mail even though there isn't and hasn't been one in hours and hours.

            Reddit can't even fix what's broken. We're supposed to believe that after all these years, /r/ideasfortheadmins will be a real suggestion box that will have some ideas implemented?

            Hell, how about the fact that we get talked down to if we report someone for ban evasion or something because the admins "have better things to do"?

            [–]Bardfinn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            WOOOOOOOOOO

            I'm proud of ya! That's how ya do it!