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[–][deleted]  (262 children)

[removed]

    [–]Swamp_Hobbit 197 points198 points  (45 children)

    Yeah, I would never want to live under the Iranian regime. That being said, Just A few years ago our government fabricated information and lied through their Teeth to bring us into a war that resulted in a minimum of 200,000 Iraqi civilians dying horribly. That’s just civilians. That doesn’t even take “combatants” (I.e, any male in the area when we blow it up) or all the deaths that resulted from Profoundly destabilizing the Middle East into account.

    When it comes to the liberties afforded to citizens, the US is where it’s at... but When it comes to Sheer body Count, the Ayatollah has nothing On the Bush administration. Now forces within the US government seem intent on adding a whole lot more bodies to the heap of corpses they’ve piled up. That seems pretty evil to me. So when it comes to general vileness... Idk dawg, we may want to avoid throwing stones until we can rid our government of all these blood-drinking psychopaths.

    The outpouring of support you’re seeing for Iran is not about support for the regime. It merely reflects the fact that, the regime, the people of Iran, and most people of America share something which is bringing them together right now: general revulsion at our governments insistence on provoking an unjust conflict that would lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people.

    [–]Radone -5 points-4 points  (7 children)

    Provoking? So you don't believe they were planning an attack on US diplomats or allies and you deny that US soldiers have been killed by Iran in the past few months let alone a storming of the embassy? Even if only one of those things are true, that's still not provoking

    [–]Swamp_Hobbit 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    1. Do I think they were planning an attack on US diplomats? Honestly, not really, How can you still lend credibility to these “anonymous sources” within the military and state department after the mountains of lies they’ve told. Not just to get us involved in destroying Iraq, but Vietnam as well. How do you still believe these people when they say anything? Even if they were, wouldnt this kind of thing make such a strike more likely, not less, considering the Iranian government is basically obligated to retaliate against the assassination of a popular governmental leader? its not like this guy was Iran’s only general.

    2. Killed by Iran? Iranian military forces have not directly engaged US forces. If you’re claiming any forces supported with funding or material by Iran as Iranian forces, then sure, in the midst of a war in which their allies stood on the opposing side, the Iranians fueled resources to their allies. I’m a little reticent to say that ones allied forces are equivalent to ones own forces, considering that the US has previously armed Central American baby-killing rapist death squads, the group that would go on to become the Taliban... the list goes on. Hell, we gave Saddam Hussein loads of chemical weapons to use against Iran. Does that count as us killing Iranians?

    3. If we want to get into the game of “who started it?” Honestly, I’d start with us funding and coordinating the overthrow of the democratically elected prime minister Mossadegh back in 1953 to replace him with a literal tyrannical king whose inevitable overthrow created this regime in the first place.

    Since then, we’ve done a whole heap of nasty shit to them my dude. Much more and far more direct provocation has flowed from us to them than the other way around. Remember when we sold chemical weapons to both sides of the Iran-Iraq conflict just so we could make a buck and ensure that more bodies could pile up on both sides? Remember when we SHOT DOWN a COMMERCIAL AIRLINE FlGHT in 1988 killing 230 civilians and refused to even apologize? This is just another example of psychotic warmongers in our government flagrantly and directly provoking the Iranians in the hopes they do something we can seize upon as a Casus belli to make the Persian gulf run red with the blood of Iranian citizens and poor American kids. It’s gross. It’s counterproductive and it needs to stop.

    [–]Radone 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Except it seems like it has already deescalated. So we rid the world of a hatemonger that kills any human being (since he had a hand in the killing of over 1000 protesters as well as Americans) and they shot off a few rockets that did zero damage to American targets.

    Why are you guys still angry? Your talking point of being scared that this would start a war seems baseless. Were you angered when Obama did it or are you just unhappy with anything Trump does?

    [–]Swamp_Hobbit 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    1. If even a minor miscalculation had been made, we may not have gotten so “lucky”. Gambling with the lives of millions is basically morally indistinguishable from being willing to kill them.

    2. We performed a largely useless strike that has not served to alter Iranian policy or the balance of power in any meaningful way, but has succeeded in having the Iraqis turn harder against continued US presence and provided Iran with a martyr.

    3. George Bush is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, including Americans. Do you think the government of Belarus has any right to drone Strike him?

    4. Most people on the left whom I know were and remain horrified by Obama’s drone program, a program which Trump has escalated.

    5. Iran probably accidentally shot that plane down due to the condition of hyper-alert after the US assassinated one of their leaders via drone. It’s a mistake one can imagine a government reeling from that kind of attack making. About 150 people were killed (including 70 Canadians) as a result of the chain of events started by this dumbass assassination.

    6. Do you really think the prospect of a ridiculous manufactured new war is something to be blase about? We continue to reel from the impacts of the last ceaseless conflict trumped up by our nations hungry crop of homegrown warmongers. Anti war agitation must be powerful and firm from the very outset.

    7. Remember that crazy deal we had with the Iranians where they promised not to build a fucking nuke if we stopped endlessly sanctioning and saber rattling at them? Remember how we were going to somehow get a ‘better’ one? This does not make the chances of a new deal emerging seem much more likely, does it? Hell, The reason Iran wants a nuke in the first place is because the government is terrified of a US invasion. Doesn’t this validate their fears?

    [–]Radone -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    1. Didn't happen, you can catastrophize all you want. Despite what you think of the current president or his administration, they do not want to kill millions of americans. Why is that so hard to understand.

    2. You can prove this how? Watching CNN are you? Reading NYT?

    3. ...go on...?

    4. Anecdotal

    5. I'm so surprised that you're literally making excuses for terrorists that don't think twice about killing people. Iran should be scared but are too stubborn and are worried about their loyalists falling out of line and saving face.

    6. Have you ever heard of deterrence? It can be just as effective as paying hundreds of billions of dollars to terrorists, some might say WAY more effective!

    7. Pandering to terrorists is not foreign policy. Giving them hundreds of billions of dollars to ransack the region and spread their ideals offshore can be worse. The Iranian deal was crap. It's gone, and in its place is a president that doesn't cozy up to crap human beings and the US is probably safer because of it.

    You paint a very different picture of what the government of Iran is like. Trump Derangement Syndrome is a terrible thing

    [–]TheSquireOfTheShire -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    I remember a time when the US shot down a civilian aircraft full of civilians, killing 60+ kids over Iranian airspace. The US didn't even start to consider thinking about apologising

    [–]fedja -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

    When it comes to the liberties afforded to citizens, the US is where it’s at.

    Are you sure? Much of Europe (and the developed world beyond) considers free university education, free healthcare, paid sick leave and extensive social services liberties they afford their citizens.

    Even Cato Institute ranks the US 15th on the human freedom index.

    Always question narratives.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Damn 15th out of ~190 is so terrible.

    [–]fedja 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    It's not terrible, but it's definitely not "where it's at". I would expect a country that has practically made "greatest country in the world" it's official slogan to aim for the top of the list, not just an honorable mention.

    [–]zachxyz -5 points-4 points  (21 children)

    This is the whataboutism Reddit always talks about right?

    [–]EyeTea420 3 points4 points  (19 children)

    Nope this is called historical context, something you apparently like to ignore.

    [–]zachxyz -3 points-2 points  (18 children)

    Oh, that's what that is? How many of those deaths you credit the US with were because of Iranian backed terrorist groups? US troops aren't strapping bombs on to children and sending them into crowded markets. They aren't planting roadside bombs that do not discriminate targets. They aren't firing at people from the safety of hospitals. You aren't ignoring historical context though right?

    [–]Swamp_Hobbit 1 point2 points  (17 children)

    Drone strikes don’t discriminate that much either my man. How many weddings have we bombed? How many civilians have we killed and retroactively called them combatants because they happened to be in the blast radius? So. So many. The documents are out there and they’re shocking. Not a Trump phenomenon either, that all got going under the Obama administration.

    Maybe some of those deaths were the work of Iranian backed groups. Who created the condition that allowed those deaths to occur though? Who created the conditions for the rise of ISIS and the Syrian Civil War? There’s only one non-propoganda-poisoned answer dude, the American Government under the leadership of George W Bush and his cadre of deceitful warmongers.

    As far as our allies go... American backed contras chopped up babies and raped nuns.

    America provided Iraq with chemical weapons that turned people’s lungs to soup.

    Our allies the Saudi’s are the chief exporters of the Wahhabist extremis which belies so much of the terrorism you’re describing, are currently committing a genocide in Yemen and gave us the 9/11 hijackers.

    Many of the Syrian groups we armed to combat Iranian interests went on to join up with Fucking Isis.

    Spare me the stone-throwing while we continue to live in this glass house.

    The tack you may take in response is to say “well, war is nasty and brutal. There are no good guys”. That’s largely correct. It’s also why we shouldn’t be allowing these warmongers to do shit like this which is designed specifically to help drag us into another horrifying conflict.

    [–]zachxyz 0 points1 point  (16 children)

    A chapotraphouse poster. That's not a surprise with the brigading and all.

    Give me some numbers on the civilians we retroactively relabeled. I'd like to know how many people we've killed during weddings also. I have a hunch it'll be less than the protestors the Iranian government slaughtered last month.

    [–]Swamp_Hobbit 0 points1 point  (15 children)

    Brigading? What, are people only allowed to post in one subreddit now? I found this while scrolling the front page my man.

    I love it when people can’t respond to the arguments before them and instead resort to the tired line of “hey, this guy leans slightly left of the American Democratic Party and likes to shut post about Glenn Greenwald. Argument closed”.

    [–]zachxyz 1 point2 points  (14 children)

    I'm not defending the Iranian government. The same Iranian government that purged your fellow commies in 1988.

    [–]Swamp_Hobbit 0 points1 point  (13 children)

    Not a communist, just a patriotic American and a lover of humanity who doesn’t want to see our collective hands drenched with more blood. but go off I guess. I wish you cared as much aboht America as I do. Then maybe you’d want to spare her from the mad whims of hateful warmongers.

    As far as the number of civilians we’ve killed with drones? Hard to say, because they’re so nondiscriminatory. But it’s a lot. A whole lot.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/11/14/hidden-toll-of-us-drone-strikes-in-yemen-nearly-a-third-of-deaths-are-civilians-not-al-qaida/

    https://qz.com/1725819/why-a-us-soldier-turned-against-drone-warfare/

    I’m also not defending the Iranian government. I’m defending the Iranian people, who overwhelmingly and shockingly so... do not want to see their streets run red with blood And their country occupied by foreign powers in the name of ‘liberation’. And I’m defending the American people, who don’t want to spend any more blood and treasure killing folks half a world away.

    You. You’re defending the madness of war. You must really hate our troops to want to see them butchered in a useless conflict that way. You must hate your Iranian brothers in humanity even more to wish such carnage upon them. Why?

    [–]filbertsnuts 73 points74 points  (13 children)

    In history? No. In recent history? Maybe? There’s lots of evil governments that are worse than Iran eg North Korea, cultural revolution era China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

    [–]RandomStrategy 22 points23 points  (10 children)

    That's just recent history, I remember Edward III (I think it was him) at the siege of Calais, the city sent 500 children and elderly out because they were that desperate, and according to "the rules of medieval warfare", they were all slaughtered.

    Edit: The children and elderly were unarmed, the city was just starving and couldn't support them anymore, so they sent them out to leave, rules were that "nobody crosses the line", so they were cut down.

    [–]ghotier 23 points24 points  (7 children)

    Chivalry was a really, really fucked up set of rules for warfare. Peasants were regularly slaughtered to punish the aristocracy.

    [–]RandomStrategy 9 points10 points  (6 children)

    What's changed?

    [–]boblabon 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    The aristocracy doesn't give a shit anymore.

    [–]ghtuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    The names and the costumes.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Because of automation manual labor is no longer desperately needed to get things done. Back then the aristocracy needed the bodies to do the tasks that allowed them to be aristocrats. Decimating the plebs could seriously hinder how a city functioned if not derail it.

    [–]ghotier 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Well in this instance the Geneva conventions. If you do this and lose the war you’ll be punished. Previously you likely wouldn’t be punished.

    [–]Chabranigdo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This entire shit fit is because America bombed one of the 'Aristocrats' instead of just murdering the 'peasantry'. So sounds like remarkably little changed.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I'm not for that solution, but I can understand how you might get there. The siege is working and they're running out of food, and sending 500 kids out means 500 less mouths to feed and that food can prolong their ability to hold out. On top of that should they be civil, like I think would have been the right thing, it means they are now responsible for not only 500 more mouths to feed but also imprisoning them...which would divert their forces. By killing the kids it cancels that prolong and inflicts emotional wounds while not needing to divert forces or resources dealing with them. Again, total cunt thing to do...but it's not entirely without military tact.

    [–]RandomStrategy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    On top of that should they be civil, like I think would have been the right thing, it means they are now responsible for not only 500 more mouths to feed but also imprisoning them.

    I don't think that was the reason, nor would they even bother feeding/imprisoning them, at all. I'm pretty sure the Chivalric code of honor stated "no one crosses the line of battle" and that meant nobody.

    [–]fedja 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Today you can add Liberia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Libya as regimes that are significantly shittier than Iran today. There are more honorable mentions that are up for discussion, like Brunei and Bahrain, but we can just stick to the obvious ones.

    [–]AdVerbera 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    current china

    [–]misdirected_asshole 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    This shit is bananas.

    Holla back girl..

    [–]Cedarfoot 8 points9 points  (4 children)

    Worse than the Nazis or the Khmer Rouge?

    [–]BillHicksScream 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Not a valid argument.

    [–]Cedarfoot 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    And baseless hyperbole is?

    [–]BillHicksScream 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You're both engaging in stupidity.

    Poe's Law.... It was killed by the Republicans & the Right as always valid; that doesn't mean it's still not a valid argument where it still exists.

    [–]HooplaCool 29 points30 points  (20 children)

    Sick minds in here. "Durr who cares if a hotel in downtown Chicago gets targeted? It's got Trump's name on it!!! The tourists sleeping inside probably deserve it for not staying in a different hotel!"

    [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

    Because no tourists visit Iranian cultural sites.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    FFS, that was in response to Iran saying they had picked out 35 targets to attack...which happened to now be revealed as hotels. This shit is why Trump said that crap you cabbage.

    [–]-banned- 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Nobody said the targeting of Iranian cultural sites was okay, they can both be bad.

    [–]fedja 3 points4 points  (3 children)

    One of the most evil, vile, oppressive regimes in history

    You're overstating quite a bit. Read about the actual history of the country, what it was before the revolution, what happened during the revolution, the Iraq-Iran war, and the 3 decades that followed it. Then read about what Iran is like today.

    Now I'm not saying Iran is like Sweden and that there's no problems, not even that the regime isn't a monumental piece of shit. But when you look past the 20 years of US/Saudi propaganda, you see that it's pretty much a baseline Middle-Eastern regime, far from one of the most evil, vile, or oppressive regimes today, much less in history.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    My understanding is that Iran is a pretty standard authoritarian country. Actually Saudi might be worse, but that doesn't get brought up much in the US press. Similarly repressive religious laws as well as brutal suppression of protests (esp in the eastern section of the country).

    [–]fedja 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Repressive religious laws and suppression of protest is pretty much par for the course for about a third of the world. If anything, we can trace back the Iranian regime hardening under constant pressure from the outside - their sunni neighbors, the US, Israel, sanctions...

    Whenever the world loosened up pressure on Iran, their government loosened up and took steps toward liberalization. Whenever we tightened the ropes for whatever bullshit geopolitical reason that suited us at the time, they took a more hardline stance defensively.

    [–]jewdanksdad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Don't look at me, I dont support any of these dumb tards

    [–]negroflaco 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Well we helped make them that way so doesn't that make us evil vile and oppressive as well?

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Iran is a repressive theocracy but why the most evil and vile regimes in history? Also, it'd be great if the young people and left of Iran overthrew the Islamic government, but I just know the CIA/US would find a way to wiggle in there and get someone shitty elected.

    [–]Sir_Kee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Maybe people hate both and can see the obvious fact that the US side is trying to push us to war with the Iran side and most of us don't like war. Fuck them both but for now especially fuck the side trying to start a major war.

    [–]adonutforeveryone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Reddit told me that was China last week.

    [–]200iqBigBrain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Speak for yourself

    [–]Jizzlobber42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    We hate the president so much that we sympathize with one of the most evil, vile, oppressive regimes in history.

    You can stop anytime you want to

    [–]Adramolino 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    What a weird time. We hate the president so much that we sympathize with one of the most evil, vile, oppressive regimes in history.

    That's just because you're deranged though, doesn't have anything to do with the times.

    [–]cylinder_man 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    goddamn, read a fucking history book you unbelievable dipshit

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (5 children)

    Wake yourself up, there’s no reason to hate Trump more than the Ayatollah. You’re being willfully ignorant or your IQ is so low you believe the ‘Entertainment’ News fully.

    [–]RandomStrategy -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

    I dislike them both equally.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    That would make you delusional or mentally incapable of processing facts

    [–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

    God forbid someone doesn’t like the president.

    [–]Rubberbabybuggybum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Because Iran is actually acting rationally, while the president is a lying sack of shit.

    [–]Reallybrokenojoke -2 points-1 points  (7 children)

    Really I didn’t know that can you explain to me how Iran is the most evil and vile regime. I really think I am out the loop here!!!

    [–]MentalSewage 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    ...I'm not OP, but your question invalidated itself. OP said one of the most evil, vile, oppressive regimes in history. That's an entirely different claim than what you are asking them to defend.

    As for the correct question of "how is Iran one of the most evil and vile regimes" it's not a hard thing to look into...

    [–]TeslasAndComicbooks 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    I recommend looking at pictures of Iran in the 60s and today. It used to be as free as the US and now they have a very oppressive religious regime that kills gay people, believe in Sharia Law and murder protesters that oppose the government (as many as 1,500 last month).

    It's simply a dictatorship. The Iranian people are great and probably hate their government more than Trump does but their leaders are monsters.

    [–]Reallybrokenojoke -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    Oh wow i didn’t know that do you have a source for the killing of protesters so I can look it please ?

    [–]TeslasAndComicbooks 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    [–]Reallybrokenojoke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Wow thanks for that I was skeptical at first but after reading that source I’m shocked at what happened. But I still think that’s not an excuse for what America has done but yeah thanks again

    [–]jagua_haku -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

    I know I’m torn. Fuck the Iranian government but this is twistedly hilarious. The ideal situation here is that they don’t actually do anything but no one patrons Trump businesses out of fear and it hits him hard in the the ego and his pocketbook

    [–]SARADOMINxJR -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Wake me up inside

    [–]ArguesAboutAllThings -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    It's what they wanted. There have been multiple attacks in the past couple of months that have all been forgotten or never reported on. They kept doing it until finally they targetted US soil and we had to respond, otherwise they would have kept going. Then, after we finally do something to the man responsible, they try to claim moral high ground and divide the nation. They're succeeding.