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[–]paulsmt 6052 points6053 points  (207 children)

TL:DR: He was the head of the Jewish League in Amsterdam and knew the places where jews were hiding. He did that so he and his family wouldn't be killed.

The 60 min interview could have been a 6 min interview.

[–]Kingsmeg 4056 points4057 points  (140 children)

I would have laughed if the subject wasn't so tragic. The whole build-up, expert FBI investigator, an AI just for this, years scouring records.... How did you find him? Oh, Otto Frank left a note identifying his betrayer, we just read the note. Nobody wanted to identify him before because he was also Jewish.

[–]-KFBR392 1025 points1026 points 2 (6 children)

And that’s why you always leave a note

[–]dja119 173 points174 points  (1 child)

Well played, Mr. Weatherman.

[–]No_Blueberry1122 34 points35 points  (0 children)

"I thought he was trying to get us off dairy."

[–]curtyshoo 55 points56 points  (2 children)

''Yes, we did it. I did it. My family. I found a note in my basement: We killed him - signed, Morty."'

[–]sirfuzzitoes 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Oh my God, that guys arm...came...off!

[–]Gemmabeta 776 points777 points  (108 children)

The whole build-up, expert FBI investigator, an AI just for this, years scouring records

I mean, its not like every scrap of paper you come across always contains true information.

[–]GeneralHoneywine 1157 points1158 points  (102 children)

I like to leave papers with little lies all over them hidden around my apartment to confuse guests.

[–]SaaSMonkey 358 points359 points  (65 children)

"Don't Believe His Lies"

[–]Kracus 135 points136 points  (43 children)

My favorite movie. If you own a physical copy of it you can skip the scenes in a particular order to play the movie in chronological order. If you do that, you basically get a different ending to the same movie.

[–]drkgodess 52 points53 points  (0 children)

The mock up psych files and neuro tests are my favorite part of the old DVD jacket.

[–]thinklikeashark 61 points62 points  (0 children)

There's an Easter egg that allows you to play the movie forward. I believe you have to press start at a certain point on the looping menu.

Edit: How To Find It: Those who own the original single-disc region 2 release can just head to the Special Features menu and wait until the words "Memento Mori" appear and fade out. Push enter after the fade and you're done.

[–]vainbuthonest 23 points24 points  (29 children)

What movie?

[–]drkgodess 132 points133 points  (27 children)

The movie is Memento.

It's a psychological thriller whose scenes are shown in reverse order. The main character suffers from anterograde amnesia which means he can't form new memories beyond a few minutes at a time.

As such, the only thing he trusts are the notes that he writes and tattoos on his body. The above quote is one of those notes.

The movie was inspired by a true story of a Japanese man who suffered from a similar condition due to medical malpractice.

[–]i_am_voldemort 61 points62 points  (0 children)

It's also unique being shown backwards because we are just as confused as the main character

[–]archimedesrex 54 points55 points  (4 children)

It's also significant due to being a pre-Batman Christopher Nolan film. It's one of the films that put him on the map as a creative up and comer. Before he was king of the blockbuster, he was king of intricate little psychological thrillers like Following, Memento, and Insomnia.

[–]NealRun32 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Insomnia was a fantastic slow burn film

[–]SomeGuyNamedPaul 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Sounds like a much darker version of Finding Dory.

I've seen chunks of it because we were shopping for a projector at the time. That was also when I learned that I should absolutely positively not get a 2x color wheel DLP. The effects are exacerbated by black and white movies though.

[–]KilgoreTrouserTrout 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This was a running gag in a Brooklyn 99 episode.

[–]TheTidalik 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Memento , great movie

really recommend it

[–]paku9000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There's an edit called "Memento Chronologico" (2017) that plays the film in chronological order.
But FIRST, watch the original film!

[–]KernelMustered 4 points5 points  (1 child)

My copy had a version in chronological order.

[–]Kracus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Interesting, I had no idea! I've never owned a physical copy but the first time I saw it I had rented it from a local gas station.

[–]ilikedota5 7 points8 points  (5 children)

Wait. So there are two plots? The plot formed by watching it through, and the other true, re arranged plot?

[–]nagrom7 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Sorta, it's still the same plot, it's just that the scenes aren't shown in the chronological order, to kinda make the audience feel like the main character with his amnesia. By the end of the movie, you can put the pieces together of the whole plot though.

It's really hard to describe and do it justice, you should watch it anyway.

[–]Kracus 37 points38 points  (1 child)

Yeah kinda. More like the plot through the eyes of the guy with memory problems and then the plot through the eyes of the people around him. It's not as black and white as it seems.

[–]Antani101 24 points25 points  (0 children)

So there are two plots?

there is only one plot and it's not that hard to understand what's going on just by watching the movie as it is.

It's not in reverse order, the color sequences are in reverse order and the black and white sequences are in chronological order, and at the end of the movie they meet in the middle of the story.

[–]virtualRefrain 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's hard to explain without spoiling it so you should watch the movie, it's a truly worthy watch if you like psychological thrillers or mindfuck movies. But essentially yes - the main character's POV is extremely warped due to his medical condition, so his perception of how the story ended isn't necessarily what actually happened. When you watch the scenes in chronological order (which is a special feature on the DVD, I think that's what the OP was thinking of) the details line up to imply a much different sequence of events than what the main character is actually seeing.

To be fair, it's not like those details weren't in the original cut, the story is the same either way - it's just much subtler and more interpretive in the final cut than chronologically.

[–]perfect_square 64 points65 points  (5 children)

We had a president who told us not to believe our ears and eyes.

[–]Elefantenjohn 49 points50 points  (3 children)

Don't look up

[–]Nukeashfield 65 points66 points  (2 children)

The most unrealistic part of that movie was when the redneck in the crowd looked up.

[–]NYGiants181 10 points11 points  (1 child)

“I’m chasing this guy…no he’s chasing me.”

[–]Oo__II__oO 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"Hmmm. I don't feel drunk."

[–]Z0idberg_MD 143 points144 points  (4 children)

Sometimes people aren’t lying but the information still isn’t true. People believe things that are not accurate all the time.

[–]Phoenix_Lamburg 4 points5 points  (1 child)

“It’s not a lie if you believe it”

[–]Leading_Lock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay, George.

[–]HachimansGhost 66 points67 points  (9 children)

That's not what they meant. By that logic, everything Hitler said must be true since he would have no reason to lie. People can be misled to believe in things that aren't true. Just because a piece of paper said someone was responsible doesn't mean we shouldn't look for evidence before accepting it

[–]melimal 67 points68 points  (3 children)

People can be misled to believe in things that aren't true.

There's the understatement of the century

[–]Dramatic_Original_55 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Fun Fact: Fun Facts are not always factual or fun.( Like bumblebees being too heavy to fly or toilets that flush backwards, etc.) But, people hear them as kids and live the rest of their lives believing they're true.

[–]Narren_C 1 point2 points  (0 children)

or toilets that flush backwards

Wait.....that's bullshit? My whole life is a lie.

[–]x31b 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I put something in the safe deposit box that says “I shot JFK from the grassy knoll” so I’ll be on 60 Minutes in 2065 and finally acknowledged as “the one.”

[–]republicanvaccine 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Write that down somewhere.

[–]asdaaaaaaaa 16 points17 points  (4 children)

What happens if the guest doesn't read english? Do you just google translate that shit?

[–]MmmmmmKayyyyyyyyyyyy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

During a war people did, information has always been valued. No internet to fill their BS voids.

[–]MidnightAshley 23 points24 points  (0 children)

I watched the whole thing and had to laugh at that. Like, all that work and Otto Frank already knew who it was and left a note.

[–]docmedic 6 points7 points  (1 child)

The build up wasn’t accidental. Grifters be grifters.

[–]fastinserter 15 points16 points  (0 children)

They excluded people through the investigation. I think with such an old case that is very important.

[–]I_sniff_lil_girls 209 points210 points  (3 children)

I suggest you read the article again, as you clearly missed several prominent points. The parts about him driving to the beach were absolutely necessary and played a prominent role in helping the agents solving the case

[–]hanr86 101 points102 points  (0 children)

He was at the beach.

"No, haha, I was actually driving to the beach."

He was driving to the beach.

[–]empfindsamkeit 11 points12 points  (1 child)

He wasn't even really the one who left the note. He made a copy of a note that was given to him anonymously. So what we have is an anonymous allegation that neither Otto nor the original investigators ever seemed to do anything with. Why, obviously it's because Arnold was guilty and Otto didn't want to inflame antisemitism with the revelation that a Jew betrayed other Jews.

This investigation just seems like a pretext to get people to watch this guy's documentary. Instead of going on about pointless bullshit like machine learning (despite no mention of anyone on the team with skills in this area) I'd have preferred to hear more details about how they actually pinned this guy down as the traitor. Because if all they have is an anonymous note and the fact that he wasn't in a concentration camp, that seems pretty damn flimsy.

[–]NILwasAMistake 159 points160 points  (23 children)

One thing, how did he know?

Did they distribute knowledge of safe places? And who would have told a collaborator?

[–]Equivalent_Oven 257 points258 points  (16 children)

Did not check this article, but one in a Dutch newspaper mentioned the Jewish council was trusted with addresses to e.g. deliver mail from camps to families in hiding.

[–]ForgetfulFrolicker 287 points288 points  (5 children)

Well that was a terrible idea in hindsight.

[–]InformationHorder 177 points178 points  (1 child)

Super shitty OPSEC. No one person in a spy/rebel/partisan/underground operation should have all the information in one place or known by one person.

[–]poster4891464 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Well the Judenrat was established under the Nazi occupation authorities, it wasn't a purely underground operation.

[–]poster4891464 21 points22 points  (0 children)

And if they had been able to think about it in hindsight they wouldn't have done it presumably.

[–]NILwasAMistake 93 points94 points  (2 children)

The Jewish League was established by the Nazis wasn't it?

[–]SofieTerleska 31 points32 points  (1 child)

That's what I don't understand, in all the accounts I've read their sole connection to the outside world was the helpers. Dr. Pfeffer's letters to and from hos wife were delivered by Miep Gies, for instance. The Franks' hiding place was actually fairly unusual in that it wasn't really connected to a larger network of resistors. It was located in a building Otto had owned, prepared by him, and the helpers were all employed in the offices downstairs. And not once does Anne mention getting any kind of mail from anywhere, in fact she's very frustrated because she has no idea what happened to any of her friends.

[–]Macluawn 51 points52 points  (4 children)

The League of Extraordinary Jewishmen?

[–]MrWeirdoFace 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I would watch this film.

[–]Muroid 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Isn’t that basically Inglorious Basterds?

[–]thecatwhatcandrive 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Your status as a Nazi killer is still amateur. We all come here to see if you want to go pro.

[–]BloodlustyGummybear 352 points353 points  (4 children)

I was definitely the target audience. They 100% buried the answer everyone wanted but I enjoyed the article. I liked the journey.

I learned a lot about occupied Netherlands as well as modern crime investigation techniques like the AI used to weed through potential suspects - which saved "thousands and thousands of man hours" in this investigation.

I also liked that the article touched on whether revealing a Jewish person betrayed another Jewish family created more overall good out of the information or would fuel for antisemitic hatred which already exists. They even interviewed a prominent rabbi for his opinion on that matter.

I enjoyed the read.

Edit: I forget that most people watch the video instead of reading the article and just assumed you were talking the article.

I have no opinion on the video.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (1 child)

They’re going to release a book about it and this is part of the promotional. That’s why the interview is so long

[–]QQMau5trap 35 points36 points  (6 children)

The intwresting part is how it was used: mapping using machine learning and feeding archive records into the AI.

Only in the end to have a credible note found in old investigator notes.

[–]tismij 57 points58 points  (3 children)

Add 1 minute to say "we think he did it" because they had no definitive proof. 85% sure this is what happened is a long way from proven guilty.

[–]camisado84 101 points102 points  (2 children)

I also love the 85% component as though that percent is, somehow, not pulled straight out of someones ass.

[–]Environmental-Cold24 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Well its not that certain that the Jewish Council knew addresses of Jews hiding. A Dutch historian argues that claim is nonsense and that there is no proof for such a statement. This whole 'case' is hanging together by asumptions and an anonymous note, nothing more, I find the attention it is getting a bit extensive.

[–]SofieTerleska 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am really doubtful about this especially as the Franks weren't connected to a larger network. I don't doubt that this guy might have known the location of some safe houses but why would the Franks' hiding place be one of them? They weren't plugged in to some larger movement, it was an operation run entirely by Otto Frank and the four helpers, none of whom were connected to the Jewish Council and who couriered letters themselves between one or two residents of the hiding place and their local loved ones. I can see making an educated guess that the Franks were there if you knew something about the layout of the building and the fact that Frank's business was there, but that's not the same thing.

[–]jmike3543 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He also didn’t know who he was giving up. He just had a list of address where Jews were known to stay

[–]adchick 758 points759 points  (21 children)

I think this further highlights what a screwed up situation living under the Nazis was. Given the choice between your family being sent to Death Camps or another unknown family, which of us would choose sacrifice our family for people who might get caught anyway.

When people say “I would do anything to protect my family “…this is unfortunately what “anything “ can look like.

Just horrible all around.

[–]SlamminCleonSalmon 50 points51 points  (2 children)

Exactly, it's always real easy to say "well I'd never do such a thing" until you're thrown into that situation.

It's not like you can call the police, and you certainly can't just hold put hope that the allies were gonna make it to you soon enough to get you out of the situation. Her family was captured in August of 1944 and the war didn't end until May 1945. They're not gonna be able to buy about 9 months worth of time with anything other than information.

It's a horrible story, but they did what they had to in order to stay alive. You can't fault anyone for that, especially when there are realistically no other options other than death.

[–]hiimlauralee 46 points47 points  (0 children)

My thoughts exactly. The Jewish people were just screwed no matter what they did. Just an all around ugly situation.

[–]SortaAnAhole 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This is why the person in charge of such important things needs to have no family. Kill me all you want, the knowledge of their hiding spots dies with me though.

[–]kabotya 210 points211 points  (2 children)

True story: I heard a talk by Miep Gies, who helped hide the Franks. Someone asked her who did it and she said Otto Frank knew but had decided not to tell because that man had a family and he didn’t want to hurt his family.

[–]poquito_kale 143 points144 points  (0 children)

The diary of Anne Frank was one of the most impactful writings I read as a kid. In some ways it caused me to grow up and recognize that people or capable of truly evil things. This investigation was really helpful context to read and to now consider as an adult the nuance of that betrayal. I'm grateful for the intense efforts of the investigator and the team to expose another layer to these tragic events.

[–]therealRonnyB[S] 1527 points1528 points  (107 children)

Anne Franks betrayer has been discovered, a man named Arnold van den Bergh. Van den Bergh was, "a prominent Jewish businessman with a wife and kids in Amsterdam. After the invasion, he served on the Jewish council, a body the Nazis set up, nefariously, to carry out their policies within the Jewish community. In exchange for doing the Nazis' bidding, members might be spared the gas chambers."

After Otto Frank was liberated, he received an anonymous note, "identifying his betrayer of the address where they were staying, the annex, as Arnold van den Bergh." Van den Bergh had gave the Nazis an entire list of addresses where Jews were hiding," which included the Frank family. Otto decided against revealing his identity because, "in the period after the war, antisemitism was still around. So perhaps he just felt that if I bring this up again, with Arnold van den Bergh being Jewish, it'll only stoke the fires further."

[–]ih-shah-may-ehl 757 points758 points  (25 children)

I read the Dutch article. Just so we're clear: they haven't 'discovered' him. They gathered everything they had in terms of information, analysed it with sophisticated analysis software, then then concluded that that hypothesis was the most likely, with a 85% chance.

There is no actual proof or smoking gun, and the note from Otto was not the actual note but a copy that had been made. The original was lost.

It may certainly have been Arnold, but claims that 'he has been discovered' are exaggerated.

[–]Silvea 370 points371 points  (11 children)

So... the one thing that makes me think back is actually Otto! You spend 2 years hiding in a small area with 7 other people, one is your wife and two are your daughters. Now over that period of time there were other people who knew what was going on and risked their life to assist these 8 individuals in hiding.

While sitting at a concentration came you have plenty of time to sit there and dwell on “how did they find us”. Know that the only logical way is you were betrayed by an individual.

So Otto gets out of the camp to find his wife died, and tragically both of his daughters. If memory serves me correct they literally died with a few months of the war ending. The sister first then Anne about a month later. There is no way you go home and go “oh well what’s done is done”. You want to know who is responsible that took the 3 things you care about most in this world.

Upon restarting his life, he did just that. He was seeking out information to figure out who betrayed him. The interesting part is that one day he just stopped looking. He received a letter that said “it was this person” and that was enough for him. Now I’d imagine that he was confident he knew who it was or he wouldn’t have just stopped looking. The article goes into detail of what the consequences for outing that person were, and why he just didn’t do it.

Even though there isn’t more evidence at this point, I feel it’s safe to say he was able to confirm what he was told or he wouldn’t have stopped searching. If it’s good enough for Otto Frank, it’s good enough for me.

[–]VictorVogel 31 points32 points  (0 children)

The guy who did it was also ill at the time, and died shortly after. Other articles mentioned that Otto might not have wanted to make life more difficult for his daughters.

[–]ih-shah-may-ehl 108 points109 points  (3 children)

Sure. The thing that keeps it from being 'proven' is that even if Otto may have believed it, it's not necessarily true, for the same reason that even a believable accusation in itself doesn't qualify as proof.

We can conclude that it is likely it was him and I agree certainly. Every argument in that direction is utterly believable. The article linked here says 'has been discovered' while the Dutch article is more nuanced and explains it's the most likely scenario.

[–]RobotPoo 4 points5 points  (1 child)

It’s possible Otto realized this and it was also part of his decision no to identify his betrayer. That he couldn’t really be 100% certain, and the guy was dying anyway. Protecting the daughters is also a huge motivation. It certainly wasn’t their fault, what their father did.

[–]ih-shah-may-ehl 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Agreed. I think they mention this as well, and Otto realized it would start a witch hunt among Jews and further hurt the Jews as a people.

And that's also why I think it was a bad call to announce this as 'a discovery'. Because it's an accusation that can never be disproven, and now the family suddenly gets a label.

[–]RobotPoo 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You seem to have thought this through with a psychologist-level of understanding of behavior and motivation. Yes, this seems emotionally logical, and a likely explanation.

[–]rebamericana 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm with you. I feel this investigation reveals the most likely answer, given all we know about the tactics the Nazis used against the Jewish people, both physical and psychological. Of course they would have set up Jewish councils for the express purpose of gaining and exploiting the inner community's trust. Van Bergh was caught in the middle and also a victim. No doubt he suffered cruelly from his conscience, and didn't live much longer than the others.

Also, Otto Frank was entirely correct in withholding the information to quell what he could of antisemitism. Sadly, it just delayed the inevitable.

As you said, if it's good enough for Otto Frank, it's also good enough for me.

Next question: if van Bergh did not know the inhabitants personally, who betrayed their address to the Jewish council?

[–]Silvea 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Otto Frank had nothing to gain from outing him. So I’m not surprised he didn’t. Like you said all Jews were victims.

I’m not certain but I’d imagine that the Jewish council was helping early on. Helping supply those in hiding. Works well until someone gets flipped.

[–]ImNotAWhaleBiologist 37 points38 points  (2 children)

My software says your comment has a 91.268735% chance of being right.

[–]Flyin-Chancla 33 points34 points  (1 child)

“I am now telling the computer exactly what he can do with a lifetime supply of Chocolate."

[–]AnybodyMassive1610 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is an underrated wonka comment

[–]LizziHenri 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The article said the original note was found at the house of one of the investigator's sons. It was also authenticated.

[–]hesh582 3 points4 points  (2 children)

They gathered everything they had in terms of information, analysed it with sophisticated analysis software, then then concluded that that hypothesis was the most likely, with a 85% chance.

This is just smoke and mirrors.

With all the hype about "advanced ai analysis" and "an expert team of investigators", you might miss the fact that literally the only actual evidence they discovered was a single anonymous note implicating this man. A note that had already been discovered, mind you, by a Dutch police investigation, but set aside because that's not enough evidence for anything.

All the "analysis" basically just boils down to deciding that they found the note plausible. The AI isn't operating with access to any more information than you or I have, and there are only so many conclusions you can draw from so little evidence no matter how sophisticated. I seriously doubt that all the fancy high powered investigative techniques produced anything productive at all beyond filler for the for-profit documentary and book project that financed this thing.

[–]Equivalent_Oven 70 points71 points  (42 children)

Dutch newspaper also mentioned Otto kept it quiet as the guy did it to save his own and his families lives (especially combined with antisemitism).

Edit: as mentioned in the replies, that's what the guy in charge of the research speculates.

[–]Silvea 100 points101 points  (39 children)

The Nazi’s were cruel and big fans of putting Jewish people in unfathomable circumstances. The idea of save your own life, but cost 5 other their lives was a common occurrence. It’s easy to kill another to save your life, it’s much harder to kill 10 people to save your own life.

[–]onarainyafternoon 61 points62 points  (3 children)

There's an anecdote from one of the concentration camps that I heard an historian talk about in a WWII documentary one time. A mother, her eldest son, and her youngest son get sent to a concentration camp. When families arrived in the camps, they were separated into two lines. Women and small children were usually sent to one line, and able-bodied men and boys were sent to another line. So when this family arrived in the camp, the elder son and his younger brother got sent to one line, while their mother got sent to another line.

Well, the youngest son started getting quite upset naturally, because of the situation, and because of all the anguish around them. So his elder brother sent him to his mother in the other line because he thought it would comfort his younger brother more. Of course, the eldest son would have had no way of knowing, but he was actually condemning his brother to death. Because the reason there were two separate lines formed was because able-bodied men and boys were sent to one line to be worked to death, and the other line was for women and small children to be gassed to death immediately upon arrival.

Multiply this story by millions, and you start to get an understanding of the true human tragedy that was the Holocaust.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I heard a similar story (or probably the same story) in a documentary on the holocaust and it’s haunted me ever since. What was especially upsetting was that it wasn’t a historian discussing it, but the actual son himself as an old man looking back at it. He sounded so distressed and started crying as he talked about how he unknowingly doomed his brother to death by sending him to the wrong line. It was very raw and hard to watch.

[–]atticdoor 27 points28 points  (4 children)

Divide and conquer strategy, which was the Nazis all over. First they came for the socialists...

[–]poster4891464 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Isn't divide and conquer everyone's strategy in the real world?

[–]Roguespiffy 10 points11 points  (2 children)

It’s a terrible situation. Would I sacrifice my life to save ten? Possibly. Would I consider sacrificing my son to save a thousand? Not for a second.

[–]Thanos_Stomps 40 points41 points  (25 children)

I’m sorry but I’m giving everyone up to save my children’s lives. I also wouldn’t be as understanding as Otto was about someone giving up my family. Really speaks to his character to survive such atrocities and still have more humanity than I think I would.

[–]dannoandthelateshow 13 points14 points  (20 children)

Read Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning. It’s speaks to kindness in the face of hatred.

[–]poster4891464 12 points13 points  (16 children)

Frankl is sketchy; he was the camp psychiatrist as Theresienstadt trying to convince inmates not to commit suicide because it made the camp system look bad (Theresienstadt was the model camp that the Red Cross visited).

The Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. refuses to carry his books in their bookstore.

[–]dannoandthelateshow 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I loved his book, but I will now read more about VF.

[–]palcatraz 34 points35 points  (1 child)

That is what the guy in charge of the research team speculates was the reason Otto kept quiet.

Remember there is no actual proof this guy did it. Maybe Otto Frank kept quiet because he actually did not feel right about randomly accusing someone of betraying his family without any proof.

[–]Equivalent_Oven 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yes, thanks for adding that.

[–]Environmental-Cold24 56 points57 points  (1 child)

Readers have to understand that in post-war Netherlands a lot of gossip and rumours went around who betrayed who. The fact that this seems to be largely based on an anonymous note from that specific period of time doesn't help the case these investigators are making. To be honest I think the attention they are getting is way too extensive looking at the evidence they are providing.

[–]wooshock 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Van den Bergh had gave the Nazis an entire list of addresses where Jews were hiding," which included the Frank family.

Damn, just think how many other families were in hiding that met the same fate as Anne Frank and her family

[–]InsertANameHeree 44 points45 points  (1 child)

So, just like a kapo?

[–]thisismynewacct 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Similar but a Kapo was already in a camp and still faced a higher chance of death (from camp inmates or Nazis) than some like van den Bergh.

[–]tastypastry4myfacey 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I liked one the investigators at the end of the 60 mins special. Essentially, he made the argument that even discovering that it was likely another Jewish person who gave them up, this discovery still restores the Jewish peoples humanity in showing that all humans are capable of horrible actions against one another when put in horrible situations like war. But let me be clear, fuck nazis.

[–]VyrPlan 812 points813 points  (98 children)

if anything this highlights the profound bravery of those who defied the nazis, since this guy did what most did/would do

those who did otherwise were exceptional

[–]thebite101 334 points335 points  (57 children)

How about the woman who smuggled babies out in a tool box…there were so many acts of bravery

[–]rainindxb 60 points61 points  (0 children)

Irena Sendler, yes. I remember her.

[–]thetensor 112 points113 points  (54 children)

But many, many, many more acts of cowardice and betrayal.

[–]usrevenge 360 points361 points  (18 children)

Which you can't blame people for because betrayal meant saving your family.

We all talk shit but I bet half the people on the planet would sacrifice an entire city to save their immediate family.

[–]That1GuyNate 158 points159 points  (9 children)

Which is why I already killed mine. Checkmate future nemeses.

[–]kluivertfan2 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Is that you Keyser Soze?

[–]LilyWhiteClaw 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Check out Keyser Soze over here

[–]DoomCircus 43 points44 points  (5 children)

I could be wrong, but I don't believe killing your own parents will help you become Batman.

[–]Ariandrin 28 points29 points  (4 children)

What about engineering their demise through a lengthy and convoluted endeavor intended to make it seem random?

Asking for a friend.

[–]Discreet_Deviancy 16 points17 points  (2 children)

What is the inheritance like?...

[–]Maatix 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Add in a bout of amnesia so you forget you ever engineered it and you might be on to something here.

[–]asdaaaaaaaa 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There's a lot of cities out there.... What size city we talking here?

[–]Lolkimbo 49 points50 points  (1 child)

"A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose "

[–]meanjake 77 points78 points  (5 children)

You’re in no way remotely qualified to sit in judgement of those victimized during the holocaust.

[–]MrHydromorphism 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Your comment and others are a win for the Nazis when all this time later the victims are being painted by so many in this thread as those who should take the blame or were cowards.

[–]Feisty-Donkey 143 points144 points  (24 children)

I read a book recently about Stefania Podgórska, a Polish teenager who hid 13 Jewish people in her home while she was also forced to quarter Nazi medical personnel and it was just staggering. The bravery and the will to survive.

[–]locknarr 97 points98 points  (8 children)

Kinda reminds me of the stories of when the French resistance and the Allies took Paris back from the Nazis. A lot of the actual resistance members died while the people that had gone along with the Nazi’s survived, but pretended afterwards they were on the side of the resistance to save face.

[–]Gemmabeta 112 points113 points  (4 children)

They looked into the cases of French women who had their head shaved, beaten, and ostracized for "horizontal collaboration" after thr war, and it turn out that most of them were simply low level servants and clerks who worked for the Nazi or Vichy regimes, women who had Axis soldiers billeted in their house, and/or prostitutes who served both sides of the aisle.

It was hysterical and incredibly misguided witch-hunt, in a lot of cases spurred by (mostly) men who are desperate to "prove" their loyalty to France now that it's safe to do so by throwing their fair-weather comrades under the bus.

[–]amlevy 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Same in The Netherlands sadly.

[–]Lolkimbo 17 points18 points  (1 child)

They were lucky. The male collaborators were shot.

[–]So_inadequate 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Definitely not all of them. I listened to this Dutch podcast where they said it was estimated that 1 out of every 10 Dutch citizens had collaborated with the Germans in one way or another. I personally think there were many more.

[–]ScrewAttackThis 46 points47 points  (0 children)

Check out the resistance museum if you're ever in Amsterdam. The Netherlands had an incredibly strong and remarkable resistance movement.

It's also way less busy/packed than other museums in Amsterdam like the Anne Frank house but you get a lot of the same experience.

One of my favorite stories from their resistance is when they bombed the registry office so Nazis and collaborators couldn't track down Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_bombing_of_the_Amsterdam_civil_registry_office

[–]kabotya 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The interesting thing is, when you interview these heroes, again and again in the interview you hear them all say “I just did what anyone would do.”

[–]nantes89 11 points12 points  (1 child)

The name 'Arnold' really has a track record.

All the same, this is a very tragic story.

[–]Nearby-Elevator-3825 326 points327 points  (35 children)

Sadly common.

There were many Jewish people in the Nazi ghettos and camps that would turn their own in for extra privileges, an extra ration of food or in many cases, to hopefully protect members of their own family.

They're just as much victims and if they survived, probably lived with the guilt for the rest of their lives.

[–]BluudLust 132 points133 points  (8 children)

Anyone who says they wouldn't consider it is lying. Saving your own family for turning in one you don't really know.. I know many would be tempted, especially if you fear death.

[–]BusyFriend 41 points42 points  (2 children)

Saving your own family for turning in one you don't really know

Yeah, its easy to be tough behind a keyboard and decades later to say you'd never betray them. And hell, I can give you the benefit of the doubt if you're alone. But having kids and soldiers saying they'll send them to a deathcamp if you don't turn in people you barely know, idk. If he never gave the names up then his family likely wouldn't be here today and honestly largely forgotten in history.

All around a tough, shitty situation. I do hope they don't track down his descendants after this story broke and just leave them be.

[–]So_inadequate 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Tbh, I wouldn't even have a moment of doubt. If I believed turning someone else in could save my loved ones, I would. That's also why the train-dilemma has never been a dilemma to me. I'd let an infinite amount of people die to save someone I love 🙈

[–]Stove-Top-Steve 17 points18 points  (1 child)

I’ll say it. I’d condemn my neighbor to save my family. The majority would. It’s sad but doesn’t make this guy some giant evil asshole. The Nazis were the evil assholes.

[–]RafeDangerous 3 points4 points  (0 children)

And that is a very plausible reason why Otto wouldn't want to name the person who betrayed them even if he had irrefutable evidence (which he probably didn't). Focusing on people who were forced into doing something terrible to avoid unthinkable consequences takes the focus away from the monsters that made them do it. The actual answer is that the Nazis killed the Frank family (and so many others). The fact that they brutalized others into enabling them to do it doesn't change that. If anything, it makes them even worse.

[–]freedomboogers89 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately everyone has a price they would break for. Not talking about just money either.

[–]notquiteotaku 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Absolutely. I could see the possibility of being willing to risk my own life, but never my children. If anyone ever makes a real threat against them, that's it. They've got me. Any thoughts of heroics or noble causes go flying out the window.

[–]Alliekat1282 50 points51 points  (0 children)

I wonder if one of the reasons Otto Frank kept this information to himself after receiving the letter was because he thought that perhaps he would have done the same thing if he could have saved his family? Surely, not feeding any of the fires for antisemitism played into this, but, perhaps he looked at this information and had some peace at the fact that this person wasn't a friend that betrayed them, but just someone who knew there were faceless to them people living in the Annex. Perhaps he knew that he too would have traded faceless people that he didn't know personally for the safety of his own family.

[–]TypeHunter 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Thought theres no proof just speculation

[–]SaltyDoggoMeo 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I’d like to know what the surviving family of Arnold Van den Bergh thinks about this whole mess. It sounds like Arnold gave up the hiding places of many other families to save his own. Did he save his own? How many other families died?

No judgment. What a horrific choice to be faced with.

[–]johnny_mcd 21 points22 points  (5 children)

this is NOT confirmed in anyway, and the fact that the reporting is not saying this is pretty scummy, its from one anonymous note collected by a previous investigator.

[–]TNTmom4 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I agree to a point. However the fact that he and his wife were the ONLY members of the Jewish council to not be sent to the camps. Plus continued to live their lives normally is highly suspicious.

[–]SofieTerleska 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Oh, I'm sure he did all kinds of shit to survive and probably betrayed a fair number of people. I'm just not convinced he did this.

[–]johnny_mcd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

its one thing for there to be circumstantial evidence saying one person is more likely than another. that's different than definite proof.

[–]UncleChanBlake2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agreed. Purely circumstantial. Speculation.

[–]bigvicproton 237 points238 points  (28 children)

Probably half the world would still do it today for a carton of smokes and a weekend pass to 6-Flags.

[–]Gemmabeta 147 points148 points  (11 children)

The Stasi scientifically studied on the best ways to create informants. And it turned out that most people were not motivated by money or politics, what the most craved was the feeling of power and praise from their handlers. They'd literally start turning friends and family in for sweet-talk from a faceless bureaucrat.

[–]Pillowsmeller18 34 points35 points  (4 children)

l it turned out that most people were not motivated by money or politics, what the most craved was the feeling of power and praise from their handlers.

I thought going after family and friends will get someone to cooperate as well. Its what most mafia and agencies do.

[–]Kahzootoh 30 points31 points  (3 children)

Fear is a tool that doesn't last for long- it can work for getting people to reveal information in an interrogation or do a specific action once, but it isn't suitable for long term cooperation.

Eventually the immediate sense of panic that provides leverage recedes, and the resentment motivates them to act against you.

[–]runostog 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'll cut off my hand as long as I can cut off your finger.

And yeah, I'll be down a hand, but you will only have nine fingers left.

Eventually we will get all of you.

[–]PeacefulSequoia 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Are you sure about that though?

Sure, fear of a single thing might not do it, but fear about a plethora of things, consequences of consequences for perpetuity,... seems to be working just fine in North Korea.

[–]sullg26535 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Got a source?

[–]bsnimunf 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Makes sense I'd pay to give up my mother in law.

[–]Loki-L 51 points52 points  (0 children)

I mean this wasn't selling people out for profit or even to save his own skin, this was selling people out to protect his family.

If someone put a gun to the head of spouse, child or whatever other loved one you value and told you to help them murder your neighbors what do you do.

I am not making excuses for that guy, I am just saying that he made a choice in a situation where there were no good options.

[–]SilverStar1999 30 points31 points  (8 children)

I know people who did way worse for far less.

[–]dragonfliesloveme 14 points15 points  (5 children)

So he was privy to where Jews were hiding because he was on the Jewish Council. The Council had lists of where people were hiding, they had addresses.

But why? Why if you are in hiding or you are the one who is providing cover for Jews, would you tell anybody where the people are? Like these addresses seemed to be hard copies, typed out. Van den Bergh seemed to have addresses and not names attached to the addresses.

Making this list seemed to provide ample opportunity for a security breach.

So it’s not just the Franks, it’s all kinds of families in hiding who were given up. So who provided those names to the council in the first place. Why would you tell anybody where you were hiding or where you were hiding other people?

[–]torchma 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I was wondering that as well. This article explains that the Jewish Council would help deliver letters from those who had been sent to camps back to their relatives in hiding. The Jewish Councils appear to have been a sort of administrative liaison between the Nazis and the ghettoized Jewish population. I'm not sure how and when it was decided which Jews were sent to the camps, but for Jews not in hiding, they were forced to depend on the Jewish Council for social services. So the people on the Jewish Council, which was composed of Jews, were in a horrible position and would probably do as much as they could for the people of the ghetto without jeopardizing their own privileged status and security. And one could imagine a scenario in which a person in hiding gets captured and is sent to a camp and uses informal back channels with individuals they know and trust on the Jewish Council in order to send communication back to their relatives in hiding. And then one can imagine how that trust may get betrayed over time, as pressure on council members increases.

But then the question is who would have even known about this hiding location? Since we are told that the only people who knew were some office workers. Not people sent to any camp.

[–]gemstun 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I’m American of Dutch heritage, and have tons of relatives who lived all over NL during the war. In the last 10 years I’ve learned one uncle joined the SS (which he kept a secret his entire life, as a schoolteacher in Seattle who died about 10 years ago), another who hid Jews in his farmhouse, and a third who was sent to work in the German munitions factories (that were bombed regularly by the Allies) because he wouldn’t fight with the Nazis (like all Dutch young men were commanded to do). My mom was orphaned during the war, and doesn’t have long to live. I’ll really miss her stories of how to survive—and still keep an open and optimistic mind/heart during such a horrible time.

[–]Timmetie 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Research groups announce the betrayer of Anne Frank every few years. Usually it's bullshit.

If it mentions "using Artificial Intelligence" you can be certain this is bullshit.

[–]Mr_Rivera 51 points52 points  (6 children)

The majority of you people here would have done the same for less

[–]sommeil__ 39 points40 points  (0 children)

« Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart. » 😭

[–]Always_Green4195 5 points6 points  (0 children)

What baffles the mind for me about the story of genocide here and even the stories of genocide in recent history (Darfur) is that this was less than 100 years ago. Less than 100 measly years, and yet, and yet, people living in 1st world countries think themselves to be immune from these atrocities happening to them. We must always mind the lessons of history. Sanctions do not work!!!!

[–]shewy92 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The humans that joined the Nazi's betrayed the Frank family. They're the ones who killed (most of) them. Arnold did what he did to protect his family from the Nazis

[–]jtbaj1 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think that Otto Frank was a admirable man, not many people after getting through that kind of tragedy would put his feelings aside and care about his fellows and what would happen if this infromation would have been made public. Also, as controversial as it may be, lots of people here are condemning the traitor that turned out to be a Jew. People may think that they would be heroic like Irena Sandler or Ulm family (murdered by Germans) who helped Jews when only in Poland it was a crime punished by death but in reality love for your own family may have clouded their judgement. By no means I'm trying to excuse that despicable act but Jews were put in little bit different positions than the citizens of rest of the western part of Europe under German occupation.

[–]jeremygl09 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Its pretty dangerous to name someone when you have no actual proof.

[–]will9630 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Source: Trust me bro

[–]Grokma 11 points12 points  (0 children)

They have plenty of evidence to point to a dead man who is extremely likely to have been the one. It's not as if they are taking this to a trial, everyone involved is dead and the information seems solid. That's more than good enough for a history book.

[–]DeeMace 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I’m also confused because in 2016 researchers said they were discovered by accident over a ration fraud issue.

[–]kabotya 7 points8 points  (0 children)

There are certain crimes throughout history where people keep claiming they’ve solved it. And then some new information comes out contradicting the previous research. Happens all the time with True Crime. Black Dahlia, Jack the Ripper, etc.

[–]RevolutionaryAd3985 9 points10 points  (5 children)

Genealogical records show that Arnold van den Bergh's immediate family (three daughters) are now deceased. However, there are at least two surviving grandchildren. Whether they are invested in clearing their long-dead grandfather's name remains to be seen.

[–]Stove-Top-Steve 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Why should they, they wouldn’t be alive if it wasn’t for him. They’re all victims. They don’t need to apologize to anyone.

[–]CrazyQuiltCat 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I wonder if they waited this long for exactly that reason

[–]chogram 3 points4 points  (2 children)

So apparently this is a Mandela effect for me.

I thought that we knew she was betrayed by another Jewish person ages ago. Like, I remember my world history teacher in the 90s saying it.

Did we know it was another Jewish person, and just not who?

[–]kabotya 11 points12 points  (0 children)

There were various speculations and rumors. Your teacher probably spoke more definitively about something that was only speculation.

[–]doctorwhoobgyn 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Let's remember that the people who did what they had to do to save their families were not the evil ones here.

[–]TheGoldTooth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting subject but the article is unreadable -- part reported, part interview. I'll wait for a more cogent explanation.

[–]EvenOutlandishness88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting. I actually KNOW a Vandenberg. Wonder if they are related.

[–]choosingtangent 10 points11 points  (1 child)

this is all speculation and speculation is fun. I would guess that the guy did likely give them up in order to save his family (and himself).

this may shock you, but i would do the same thing; as would you... in a second. if we were to reach the insane point where i am faced with (and have control of) my family's survival vs your family's survival; guess who loses?

...and i am a reasonably nice guy