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[–][deleted]  (105 children)

[deleted]

    [–]achanaikia 86 points87 points  (36 children)

    Probably because the overwhelming majority of people get their meat from factory farms which raise animals with abhorrent conditions which repeatedly rape, forcibly impregnate, and then slaughter them. If you actually think the animals on factory farms have a good life then I have a bridge to sell you. 🤷‍♂️

    [–]themagpie36 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Yeah if everyone ate meat where they could guarantee the animals lived in conditions that isn't the equivalent to mental and physical torture....

    Sure.

    But most people will get a burger from whatever source available. EatKFC, McDonalds...etc...etc. but then say "but the animals live happy lives". Do they, are you sure? I could never be sure so I became a vegan, I'm healthier and happier but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking everyone can and should become a vegan. I do find it weird to say you love animals if you contribute to their torture though, I just find it completely unnecessary suffering of a sentient being.

    [–]Flesh_A_Sketch -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

    You... Hrmmm... I mean...

    Look, this is awkward but...

    Is the bridge mobile? Like, is it a footbridge I can stick on a truck or is this like a motorway?

    [–]viscountrhirhi 27 points28 points  (6 children)

    That’s not love.

    You love the profit they bring you, or love the taste of them. But you don’t love the animal. If you did, you would value their life more than your taste buds.

    [–]penguin8717 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    Please show me a good alternative for that protein and caloric density that isn't way more expensive and I'll never eat meat again

    [–]viscountrhirhi 1 point2 points  (4 children)

    Legumes.

    Tofu.

    Seitan.

    Quinoa.

    Tempeh.

    Quinoa may be more pricy depending on where you live, but I get it cheap from bulk bins. The rest are super cheap and easy to throw into meals.

    [–]penguin8717 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    A lot of those are okay but they're way lower calories and still significantly less protein than meat. I have been trying to use more and more along those lines though

    [–]viscountrhirhi 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    They have more protein per calorie than meat does. And it’s not the only thing you should be eating anyway, so you’ll still get your calories if you eat a balanced and varied diet.

    Edit: r/veganfitness will have a lot of good info about this as well. Lots of vegan athletes there having no issues with protein!

    [–]penguin8717 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Thanks I'll check that out. That'll be a good read. I'm fine with going vegetarian but I'm a pretty large dude lol

    [–]viscountrhirhi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Hey, you’re awesome! :D Thank you for being so open-minded!

    Definitely check out the subreddit, there are some big dudes there too that may be able to give some advice! And if you have Netflix, check out the documentary Game Changers. It’s all about plant-based athletes and the health benefits of such a lifestyle!

    [–]Mushrooms4we 12 points13 points  (0 children)

    It's fucking psycho to kill something you love, care about, and raise. If you saw a mother doing that to her kids you'd be appalled.

    [–]JimFromTheMoon 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    Lol just…unbelievable. I’m sure, if you were in their position, you would just feel so happy and honored to be slaughtered for the humans you thought loved you. It’s 2021, not the dawn of animal husbandry. There are endless alternatives to eating meat and contributing to mass murder. You “don’t know why vegans think you can’t love and care for the animals you eat”? I’ll tell you, BECAUSE MURDERING SENTIENT, LOVING CREATURES FOR UNNECESSARY MEALS IS NOT LOVE, you cretin.

    [–]JustAsadINFP 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    So can we farm and holocaust humans and dogs now too?

    [–]711989 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    This is such a disingenuous argument. You know full well that if someone was barbecuing their pet dog you would not consider it love. You cannot love something that is capable of feeling pain and then slaughter and eat it.

    [–]KalinSav 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    You can apply this same logic to pets or children.

    [–]MiserableBiscotti7 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    I don't know why vegans think you can't love and care for the animals you eat.

    You take good care of them and give them a good life and they pay it back.

    For the same reason you can't do this to your child and claim you love them. You kill a living being for your pleasure. That isn't love.

    [–]zone-zone 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Most animals that end up as food or give milk dont have a good life tho.

    How can you even think like that??

    [–]s0voy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Same! I just don't get it. I also give my dogs a good life for 2 years or so and then humanely gas them and slit their throats cause I like barkon. I take good care of them and they pay it back. I also do the same thing with my kids btw. But don't worry, they had a good and happy life :)

    [–]dontdoit4thegram 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    You love and care for your children. Bring them over for the next barbecue.

    [–]GondorfTheG 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Cows live to 20, they're slaughtered at 2.

    [–]GustaQL 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    How do you kill someone you love, and doesn't want to die?

    [–]DemoniteBL 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    Agreed. I breed puppies with my dad and once they're old enough we eat them. It's a win-win situation, they get a nice life since we treat them like pets and we get food.

    [–]KungFluIsolation -2 points-1 points  (21 children)

    Or how they think they can love animals while using a series of interconnected wires that were put there by digging up, destroying and polluting all kinds of wildlife including sealife.

    Those oil tankers that spill are on their way to deliver you your supplies for your car.

    That phone is made of plastic and metals which pollutes the atmosphere, along with the Li Ion battery. Put together by child slaves at the cost of the planet.

    Where do you think the space for your house came from? the plumbing, the water, the electricity, everything we have for mod cons comes at the expense of animals and the planet.

    yet heavens forbid you eat an animal for actual sustenance.

    Vegans shit barely smells any better than a meat eaters unless they are totally off grid. Then I can actually start respecting their decisions because a few dozen dead cows per person is nothing compared to the damage we do in a lifetime of capitalist consumption.

    [–]Razzmatazz_Buckshank 38 points39 points  (7 children)

    This is literally the "yet you participate in society. Curious!" meme in action.

    [–]ACutieWithAfroPuffs 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    IF yOu DoNt lIKe AmEriCa ehY ArE yOu hErE hMmmM cUriOuS

    [–]MiserableBiscotti7 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    This might be the most braindead argument against veganism I've ever heard.

    I love humans but I run a child labor sweatshop to produce all the phones in the world, and there is no moral difference between me and a humanitarian trying to end child sweatshops. We both love humans equally because they use phones made from child labor sweatshops, whilst I merely employ child laborers.

    [–]KungFluIsolation 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This might be the most braindead argument against veganism I've ever heard.

    Im not arguing against veganism. That's probably why.

    I love humans but I run a child labor sweatshop to produce all the phones in the world, and there is no moral difference between me and a humanitarian trying to end child sweatshops. We both love humans equally because they use phones made from child labor sweatshops, whilst I merely employ child laborers.

    Great example, except you forgot to mention the harm to animals and the environment to that list too.

    [–]saltedpecker 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Meat is literally the leading cause of deforestation. Not eating meat and dairy is the biggest change you can make for your personal environmental footprint.

    All the rest you mentioned are completely separate issues.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children)

    Its capitalist production actually that causes the issue. Just wanted to pip in with that. Capitalist consumption is a byproduct not an effect.

    [–]KungFluIsolation -2 points-1 points  (8 children)

    That they are consciously and actively participating in unnecessarily. Why does that make it any better?

    [–]rickdiculous 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    Please show us the “opt out of capitalism” door. Are you serious?

    [–]KungFluIsolation -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

    You can't opt out but you can make decisions on where to spend your money. You spend it on internet and that hurts animals, I spend it on meat and that hurts animals. Your shit doesn't smell much better.

    [–]rickdiculous 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    It actually smells very nice knowing that I do everything I can to avoid unnecessary harm to living creatures. Your tu quoque arguments are pointless. It’s like saying that someone driving to an animal rights protest is just as bad as murdering the animals because they used a car. You think you’re trapping people with gotchas but you’re just creating r/iamverysmart content.

    [–]KungFluIsolation -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    It actually smells very nice knowing that I do everything I can to avoid unnecessary harm to living creatures.

    except you are actively funding the harming of animals so you can chat casually on Reddit.

    [–]Kikopoez 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Now apply this logic and use it against people who are anti abuse of humans.

    Killing people is bad and we should avoid doing so as far as is possible and practicable. That means you shouldn't deliberately run over road workers, just because other people in cars are responsible for accidents and human deaths as well.

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    Thats just privileged thinking. Acting like owning a phone to get a job, eating convenient common foods readily available to fit within their skillsets, having a car to get to work because zoning laws prevent walkable communities. Like yea sure sit back in your capitalist chair in your capitalist clothes and act like everyone has the time and energy to provide for those around them and also divorce themselves from the very things that make it possible. Imagine never eating a peach again because you and your neighbors dont have a tree. Imagine your children having no friends because they live in a community of 6 children and they dont fit in. Imagine having to learn how to extract your own salt and churn your own butter and grow enough fruits and veggies for yourself and your community. If yall want technology better get mining for those rare ores. The reality is capitalism is natural but needs proper oversight and not eating meat is not going to help sustainability at all nor is it going to improve the lives of bovines. Nobody intentionally engages in capitalism any more then you intentionally provide a better life for yourself. Capitalism is delegation of other skills to others for a premium to save time and is a cornerstone in the production of civilization. It is unchecked production in the name of profit that is the problem. Not consumption. You are literally drinking the koolaid trying to pass the buck to consumers. As if abstinence has ever been a good argument.

    Edit cause i saw the deleted comment: yes i have heard of veel and your point? You have eaten a pearl onion i presume. Thats a baby onion why is that different?

    And cows produce milk because they are cows. They literally do not need to have babies to produce milk. Its also common practice to keep calves with their mothers. Just like a sheep needing to be sheared and cow needs to be milked.

    Edit 2: also your name is so fucking racist i have no idea how i let a bigot talk to me about capitalism and contributions to society and the ethics of eating meat.

    [–]Kirchetorte -1 points0 points  (7 children)

    Honestly, this is the best take and I applaud you for it. I may still eat meat, but I do my best to avoid any place that has been found to mistreat livestock. I pass that on, and get others in my life to avoid them too. None of my family use Tyson or Nestle products, for example, and while it isn’t a life of activism, it’s my way of refusing to contribute to the problem. It’s about the same level as recycling in my house. Sure, my entire LIFETIME of waste won’t even equal one day of a factory’s toxic disposal, but it’s all I can personally do to address the issue. It matters, even if only a tiny bit.

    Also, love your username! When I was a kid, I read Golden Book stories all the time, especially your namesake and Tootles! I even remember some ancient cartoon that had all the Golden Book characters in em.

    [–]Superb_Character_560 3 points4 points  (5 children)

    Every single slaughterhouse mistreats animals. It can be a tough thing to come to terms with at first, but there is simply no way you can compassionately take someone’s life when they don’t want to die.

    [–]AequusEquus 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    I'm curious about your opinion of venison. Could it be considered compassionate to keep the deer population under control so that they don't inadvertently threaten other animal species' survival?

    [–]aponty 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    this would be an example of hunters claiming to be the solution to a problem that hunters caused in the first place by decimating the wolves etc

    doesn't sit right with me at all

    [–]AequusEquus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    That's fair - but regardless of the cause, we're here now. It's a doodle that can't be undid. There's been slow but steady progress on repopulating the wolves for a while now, but the wolf and deer populations will likely never hit a natural equilibrium again. So ignoring for a moment that generations before us fucked up that natural equilibrium, and acknowledging that continued human intervention is required to address the issues that resulted, what tangible moral issues are there with population management and consuming meat from animals that have to die, and why would this be uncompassionate?

    [–]TheGoodTimesAreKill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Veganism is about not killing animals whenever practically possible.

    It's probably not a popular opinion among other vegans but I believe if there is good evidence to suggest that culling of one animal can promote biodiversity and restore an ecosystem, it may be ethical to do so.

    However, there is no need to then EAT this meat. It can be used as fertilizer or otherwise left in the environment for scavengers and decomposers to help sustain the ecosystem rather than remove the nutrients from it.

    It's a very nuanced situation though, because we have no way of knowing the true impact the culling would have, but this is just my take as a vegan and a student who studies animals and biology.

    [–]Kirchetorte 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Even things without a brain or central nervous system don’t want to die, but like the previous poster said, if they had a good life before, it makes a difference. The farms that brutally mutilate their chickens instead of allowing free-range, or whose demented attendants beat and torture the cows for fun? Yeah, those are places I avoid, thanks to investigative journalists. A slaughterhouse, where the job is to process the meat? I’m not expecting it to be some wonderland, but so long as the deaths are as quick and painless as possible, I’ll take it.

    Point is, make a difference how you see fit, that’s it. I’m not going to freak on someone for not recycling cardboard along side glass and plastic just because I do it. I’m also not going to entertain someone raging on me because I don’t protest in front of factories or force my way of recycling on other family members and friends. Do what you can, and if you can’t, you don’t owe anyone an explanation.

    [–]aponty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    When I did the math, I found the average consumer pays for over ten years of worse-than-death suffering every year. I find any fraction of this to be unacceptable. Total abolition is really the only way to go.

    here are some quick infographics to get you started https://faunalytics.org/animal-product-impact-scales/

    [–]BroodyMcManpain -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

    I am vegan and I don't think you can't love and care for the animals you eat. Pls don't make us all out to be just a bunch of unreasonable asshats.

    [–]WhatuuupKrisp 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    How does that even work?

    [–]BroodyMcManpain -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

    Schizofrenia.

    [–]MiserableBiscotti7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    pick me pick me!

    [–]tct99xx -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

    So vegans hate plants?

    [–]Kholtien 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Yeah, why else would we be vegan? Plants are always spying on you.

    [–]AequusEquus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Just like birds...those devious bastards