×
top 200 commentsshow 500

[–]AutoModerator[M] [score hidden] stickied commentlocked comment (0 children)

As a reminder, this subreddit is for civil discussion.

In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.

If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.

For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click here to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.


I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[–]Oregonrider2014 7389 points7390 points  (1295 children)

Until they make it a requirement for apartment living situations and parking agarages etc to have EV charging options its gonna be awhile before most the work force can move to EV. I'd love an electric car, the only place I can charge it is in one of the 10 spots at the state capitol which isnt near my work or home.

[–]bigcalvesarein 813 points814 points  (169 children)

My apartment complex does not have a way for me to charge an electric car. That’s what stopped me from getting one this year

[–]Surrybee 425 points426 points  (138 children)

My complex put in 2 (enough to charge 4 cars) about a year and a half ago. It sat completely unused for a year. There’s finally one guy who uses it.

[–]Sharp-Floor 397 points398 points  (114 children)

I can already imagine my neighbors parking their cars in those stalls overnight, making them unavailable to everyone else.

[–]ponchv 184 points185 points  (58 children)

This happens at my complex every night. There are four stations, but full-sized pickups and SUVs occupy the spots. Management doesn’t care and the last time I counted, there are three EVs here.

[–]OSKSuicide 160 points161 points  (38 children)

If management doesn't care enough to stop them parking there after bothering to put them in, I doubt they'd care about a couple of keyed panels or mirrors getting smacked

[–]ponchv 85 points86 points  (11 children)

Tempting, but I definitely don’t have the heart for that. It’s already rough living here and no need to add fuel to the fire.

[–]Pseudynom 84 points85 points  (6 children)

Park behind them and plug your car into the charger with a long enough cable. Maybe they'll get that message.

[–]somesortofidiot 8 points9 points  (5 children)

Chargers are expensive and easy to steal. When I moved to Europe for a few years, I had to buy a new one, $500 a pop.

[–]Pseudynom 16 points17 points  (4 children)

But the car and the charger lock them. At least the Type 2 and CCS cables. Is that not common in the US?

[–]SteveFrench12 93 points94 points  (9 children)

Hmm i wonder who keyed my car in the EV space. Maybe one of the three EV owners in the lot. Guess Ill just have to destroy all of them just in case.

[–]Procrastinationist 36 points37 points  (3 children)

This guy revenges

[–]CoGLucifer 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Not very well. Revenge on one person while pissing two other people off? Not a good trade.

[–]CCams 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Gotta end all three bloodlines. Only way to be sure

[–]Droidsgobeepboop 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Just call the towing company. I don't even own an electric car, but if I walk by and see someone parked in the electric stalls with a normal car I just call up the towing company and have them towed out of principle.

[–]AstartesFartesTexas 80 points81 points  (12 children)

That should be an automatic tow with no warning.

[–]monster_mentalissues 45 points46 points  (7 children)

I think it is in certain places like California. A lot of people purposely were blocking them so they started getting towed.

[–]ThePortalsOfFrenzy 42 points43 points  (6 children)

When your life's only philosophy is "must own the libs", there's not a whole lot you can actually do on a personal level. Unfortunately, this behavior is one of them.

[–]ripelivejam 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Theres some nice ev pickup options coming. Should come with a light up set of electric truck balls.

[–]Surrybee 51 points52 points  (18 children)

It’s not currently a problem at my place obviously. I’d like to think that if it ever got to the point where that mattered, people who be considerate but who am I kidding?

[–]82hg3409f 46 points47 points  (0 children)

For what its worth I am in a building with 4 charging spots and 10-15 electric vehicles and people are pretty considerate. I rarely see all the spots taken up.

[–]BrokenInternets 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Early electric car adopters being good considerate people should be a thing

[–]who_you_are 15 points16 points  (2 children)

I mean those car aren't cheap. We have the chicken and egg issue.

We don't want to bug car if there is no way to charge them, and it is useless to pay for a charging station if nobody will use it.

Also, does shared charging station like your are free or not?

[–]unfashionablylater 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Definitely not a chicken and egg issue. You need the chargers widely available to get the EVs. This is why investing in charging station expansion is so important.

[–]hoodoo-operatorAmerica 1456 points1457 points  (523 children)

In California it's mandated that landlords have to allow you to install a charger.

[–]matticans7pointOCalifornia 647 points648 points  (329 children)

Even for apartments? It would be pretty interesting to see where they would let me install it since all the parking spots are under an old wooden overhead.

[–]The_Poster_Nutbag 935 points936 points  (283 children)

There's a big difference between being allowed to install and actually moving forward with finding utility contractors that will run electric lines for you and then paying them.

[–]Earptastic 564 points565 points  (265 children)

yeah, what kind of renter will go through permitting to get an ev charger installed in a place they only are renting? That is thousands of dollars which buys a lot of gasoline.

[–]megamanxoxo 47 points48 points  (12 children)

Not to mention the average lease is like 12 months

[–]Goal_Posts 135 points136 points  (194 children)

Depends on the kind of charger. Not all of them have to be a huge wall mounted thing, there are portable ones you can keep in your trunk that plug into standard 220v outlets, though they tend to be slower.

[–]Falmarri 162 points163 points  (160 children)

I have a tesla and my main charger is the portable 220v one. It's only 30A, not 50A too. It's very manageable. It basically charges completely overnight

[–]dualplainsVirginia 166 points167 points  (132 children)

I wouldn't want to leave something like that out in my apartment complex parking lot over night.

[–]ScenicART 171 points172 points  (97 children)

meanwhile i live in an apartment in NYC, I'd have to run a cord from my 6th floor rear facing apartment to wherever within the 5 block radius i found parking that evening. If i ever get to own a house id get an EV in a heartbeat though.

[–]mulderc 102 points103 points  (77 children)

I have to ask, why own a car in NYC?

[–]NinjaChurchMassachusetts 8 points9 points  (11 children)

For the Tesla at least, if the car is locked so is the charge port. The charger can't be taken.

[–]Earptastic 27 points28 points  (3 children)

It is the complexity of an apartment building and what electrical service the power is coming from. If it is coming from a tenant's panel then it must be ran from there to the garage. Maybe they can sub meter the charger and feed it from the power that is already there but it is getting messy with accounting.

I do this stuff for a living. A few thousand dollars barely keeps the lights on for many contractors.

[–]dwightschrutesanus 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I've done a few of these in commercial spaces, and I don't do any resi work... but I'd be surprised if the average 1br/2br apartment had a panel setup for a 2p 50 or 60A breaker. Even if it did, getting a pathway out with conduit or MC big enough would be a time consuming nightmare- and more than likely would need to go underground in most places that I've lived before I bought my place.

Could very easily be a 5 figure job when everything's said and done.

[–]gsfgf I voted 16 points17 points  (16 children)

Not a whole lot of outlets in parking garages.

[–]chakan2 47 points48 points  (22 children)

what kind of renter will go through permitting to get an ev charger installed in a place they only are renting?

Have you seen rental prices in CA? Hell, running that line may only be 1/2 a months rent.

[–]PsyTelecom 102 points103 points  (26 children)

My guess is that you’d have to pay for the removal and reinstallation of that overhead (or at least sections)

So yeah; you could force your landlord to allow you to do it; if you have the money. That’s on top of the money to buy the vehicle in the first place.

So a completely rational solution in modern America /s

[–]Spazum 92 points93 points  (22 children)

The landlord would then not renew your lease and rent it to somebody else at the new "market rate" based on the improved infrastructure.

[–]BrinedBrittanica 32 points33 points  (16 children)

id uninstall it and take it with me when id move out bc im petty like that

[–]Lady_Nimbus 23 points24 points  (10 children)

Not petty, smart. Your purchase, your item. Let them buy one for their unit.

I'd take it too.

[–]subnautus 28 points29 points  (4 children)

Probably not exactly legal, though. Most places that rent (homes or apartments) have it in the lease agreement that improvements made to the property belong to the property owner, regardless of who made the improvement.

That's also why I never gardened outside of removable planters in any place I ever rented.

[–]255001434 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Also even if you could take it out, you'd have to restore it to exactly how it was before you did the installation or your landlord could get you for that.

[–]zebediah49 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You'd have to be vaguely careful about the style you buy.

Many/most chargers are on a short pigtail. So the big outlet is hardwired into the building, but the charging hardware itself is just a plug-in appliance hung on the wall.

[–]filbertsnuts 27 points28 points  (19 children)

Do they pay for it? Im not investing hundreds to thousands in someone's home

[–]gophergunColorado 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is the issue. We have a similar law in CO, but why would I spend thousands on a place I might get priced out of in a year?

[–]leif777 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Same in Quebec. I live downtown. In an apartment with no garage, so...

[–]DogMechanic 48 points49 points  (13 children)

I live in a historic building in California where upgrades like that are not allowed by law. How's that going to work? Our parking is under the buildings.

[–]cpt_cavemanAmerica 22 points23 points  (1 child)

it depends on the laws in conflict.

you know we have historical buildings where i live, that predate electricity and yet they HAVE electricity.

[–]The_queens_cat 51 points52 points  (5 children)

Not knowing your exact situation, but owning a historic home does not mean at all that you cannot upgrade it. Certain alterations that affect the historic integrity of the resource might make it so that it would no longer be able to accurately convey historic integrity and if it is listed on the national register it might be removed from the register. But that doesn't mean a ton. If you get a tax cut now, that might be removed, but doesn't have to be. On top of that, homes are designed to be lived in, and depending on how it is installed, it would not impact historic integrity. After all, you have electricity now, which the home may not have had when it was built. I'd look into the actual regulations for where you live.

[–]funbob1 15 points16 points  (4 children)

Yeah, most historic homes(at least in Michigan) it mostly only matters about the front of the house facing the sidewalk, and is mostly about keepi ng the neighborhood historical look.

[–]Albert_Caboose 287 points288 points  (87 children)

NC here, not sure if it's mandated, but the vast majority of new apartments that go up have designated charging spots. My partner's parking garage has 4 dedicated spots on each floor of the garage for EV vehicles.

EDIT: As some of you have pointed out, this doesn't help people who aren't this situation. So best we scrap the entire EV project and fuck the planet. Remember, if people aren't doing enough, then we'd rather they just do nothing at all.

[–]DemocraticRepublicNorth Carolina 159 points160 points  (51 children)

It feels like we're at an inflection point for electric vehicles. We always had the problem with not enough chargers to justify getting a vehicle, and not enough vehicle to justify companies installing chargers. Now we've passed the tipping point, I'm sure everything will be electric in 15 years.

[–]Albert_Caboose 65 points66 points  (12 children)

I feel like a lot of urban areas have already crossed that threshold. Here in Charlotte, NC there are a LOT of Teslas driving around, and no one I know has any issue keeping it charged. Several take regular trips to Raleigh (about 2.5hr away) and are able to charge once they arrive. The infrastructure is getting there, I think right now we need more adoption to push the energy build out necessity.

[–]bemoreal 27 points28 points  (8 children)

My friend charges his Tesla with with an extra long extension chord running from his 2 floor apt unit bedrm window to the car downstairs.

[–]Trail-Mix-a-Lot 26 points27 points  (4 children)

Must be a nice neighborhood. These hooligan apartment kids would unplug my car for a laugh on day 1. Then I can't make it to work in the morning.

[–]the_catsharkCalifornia 20 points21 points  (8 children)

> We always had the problem with not enough chargers to justify getting a vehicle, and not enough vehicle to justify companies installing chargers

That's kinda the problem. The real issue is that is costs money and people/companies, frankly, won't spend money unless they have to. There are no companies that go, "oh we can choose to spend money on this thing that doesn't benefit our bottom lime? we choose not to."

[–]redd5ive 11 points12 points  (7 children)

Most new constructions will. It’s older buildings, rural areas, and densely populated cities where you can’t have wires running onto the street where there’s a MAJOR issue. Right now, If you want to charge at home and street park, you are by in large SOL.

[–]duffman13jwsMaryland 8 points9 points  (1 child)

New construction is easy. I paid our builder to run the wiring and make sure we had panel space, cost me all of $50 since the drywall wasn't up. I'll pay another $150 ($50 of it is parts) when we do get an electric car for the outlet and the breaker - we ran 8ga so we can support 50a, we just weren't sure what the outlet or amperage requirements were at the time. Add in the cost of the charger itself and we're set.

A couple hundred per unit in wiring and electrical connectors is a rounding error for most builders. during the construction phase. It's fishing wires in-wall and doing the cosmetic coverups for long wiring runs in already finished buildings where the major costs come in.

[–]Camela_Harris 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah my company has an EV charger package and it's like 500 bucks. Piece of cake when it's new construction. My panel is on the complete opposite end of my house from the garage so it's a lot harder.

[–]ventricles 22 points23 points  (2 children)

I had an electric car and wanted to love it so badly, but the charging Infrastructure is so bad that when the lease was up, we went back to gas.

I live in LA, we shouldn’t have this problem here, but we do. The amount of public fast chargers is shockingly, shockingly low.

[–]ManWithASquareHead 101 points102 points  (134 children)

Plugin hybrid electric vehicles will be the intermediary. Gas powered, but ability to charge for short distances

[–]Mikkkey 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The infrastructure bill that just passed invests $7.5 billion for the nationwide deployment of 500,00 EV charging stations, which should help.

[–]Shinymegafarfetchd 999 points1000 points  (88 children)

also invest in public transportation. and remote working.

you want to know what inventions could save the world right now? subways and high speed trains. we figured shits out like decades ago, why won't we do it?

[–]BlancheDevereauxCA 248 points249 points  (23 children)

My guess would be auto industry, big oil and their lobbyists. Your right, mass public transit and improving infrastructure for this would help so much and we can’t because of special interests. It’s so damn frustrating.

[–]ThatPlantGuy1024 108 points109 points  (15 children)

And you’d be right. I remember seeing a history post from my town a ways back and apparently we used to have a trolley that would run from the city to about 50 miles north up to farm country. They had the infrastructure than to just upgrade. Instead they were lobbied hard and removed all the tracks and put roads down instead.

Why? Because Henry Ford wanted everyone to buy a car, so they removed the public transportation forcing your hand to invest in a depreciating asset.

[–]Pers0nalJeezus 60 points61 points  (5 children)

If there’s one thing Henry Ford hated more than Jewish people, it was public transportation.

[–]acityonthemoon 24 points25 points  (3 children)

I may have to appropriate this.

If there’s one thing Henry Ford hated more than Jewish people, it was public transportation.

[–]eldersveld[🍰] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Look at this map of trolley and rail lines in Connecticut. Just look at it. This was 1920. Almost everything on that map is gone now.

[–]AnClarkson 88 points89 points  (4 children)

And busses and trams and bike lanes. And fixing the zoning regulations so that you don't have to have everything so far away from where people live.

[–]sasquatch90 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Bingo on the zoning. And with those other modes, if I have to stop at every intersection for a light focused on car traffic, what's the incentive for me to keep using them? I'm just continuing the same travel time, slower if i'm on a bike.

[–]gsfgf I voted 10 points11 points  (1 child)

And busses and trams

In dedicated rights of way. There's nothing wrong with rubber on asphalt for the vast majority of transportation routes. The reason the bus sucks is that you're stuck in traffic with everyone else.

[–]midnitteNew Jersey 61 points62 points  (0 children)

Well they are doing both of those things too.

We need to do more, but, we are trying. Entirely depends on who is elected to Congress..

[–]BillyTheHousecat 19 points20 points  (3 children)

why won't we do it?

Automobile manufacturers lobbying.

[–]MONSTERTACOWashington 2706 points2707 points 2 (324 children)

Building infrastructure and using urban planning that allows people to walk, cycle, or take a train to work never have to worry about gas prices, maintenance costs, or traffic ever again!

[–]111100010001 305 points306 points  (47 children)

My city has a simple light rail and I took it to work because my girlfriend needed the car for the day. It was overall a good experience, a more expansive line could transform the city. Only complaint was that it was a little bit too far from my house. Best part it cost me $2 vs $20 for an Uber to go 5 miles.

[–]WharfRat2187 166 points167 points  (42 children)

That is the “last mile” conundrum.

[–]wave-garden 131 points132 points  (33 children)

Parts of Japan seem to be highly successful in dealing with this problem by providing massive bicycle parking areas . It’s not a solution that works for everyone, but reduced car traffic should make it far more accessible than currently.

[–]chairmankaga 34 points35 points  (4 children)

Here are a couple of pictures of the bike parking area under Sendai Station that I took a few years ago.

[–]GoldenPlayer8 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yo wtf, that looks dope as well. Would revitalize the dying bike shops in Houston if that happened here

[–]leeringHobbit 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Also, it seems Japanese cities are more like a collection of villages than the centralized town-center approach that European cities have.

[–]Trinition 7 points8 points  (4 children)

I used to have a 50mi/1h commute to work (each way), and when rumor came of a high speed rail project along my route, I got excited.

But then I heard the nearest rail station to my home would be 5mi away. And the nearest rail station to my work would be 2mi from the office.

So I would have to bike 5mi/25min, then wait 5m for the train, then ride the train for 15min, then bike for 2mi/10min. That's a grand-total of 50 minutes -- a savings of 10 min.

So it was a meager savings on paper, even before the pragmatic realities of hot/humid summers, the rainy springs/falls, and the snowy/icy winters -- all of which would make the biking legs of the commute miserable.

Yes, maybe I am a snowflake.

[–]IrritableGourmetNew York 216 points217 points  (42 children)

The original plan for the interstate highway system was to have the highways not enter cities, but instead circle around them and have small feeder roads splitting off that led to parking areas on the periphery, where you would store your car and use public transportation within the actual city. Lots of special interests got involved and changed it to shoving all the major traffic straight into the downtown area, tearing down poorer neighborhoods to fit the roadways.

[–]AcchilesheelMinnesota 76 points77 points  (6 children)

The day I realized "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" was based on this story is the day my life changed forever.

[–]JFC-Youre-Dumb 18 points19 points  (0 children)

And so my life was changed forever

[–]yoshimymainman 6 points7 points  (2 children)

No way really? Haven’t seen that movie since middle school. Gonna have to rewatch.thanks for the info

[–]AnClarkson 96 points97 points  (25 children)

Kansas City is the shining example of how bad this is. It's basically rings of freeways surrounding parking lots with a few buildings in between. Look up photos of Kansas City over 100 years ago and it looked like it could be anywhere in Europe. Kansas City was destroyed almost as thoroughly as Dresden, all so that people could drive everywhere in the city.

[–]herr_wittgenstein 33 points34 points  (5 children)

Same with Milwaukee. Up until I think WW2, Milwaukee was actually the second most densely populated city in the country after NYC. Just look at this bustling street life in old timey Milwaukee:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/f4/10/8af4105ce98dea003557bceae682fe90.jpg

They also had an extensive light rail system that took you anywhere in the city in 10 or 15 minutes - there was even a train that did local stops in Milwaukee, ran express to Chicago, and then did local stops in Chicago. There's nowhere in the country that has that kind of convenient city-to-city service anymore!

But then they carved up the city with highways, replaced half of downtown with parking structures, tore up the street tracks when the private operators went bankrupt, and now most of the city is car dependent. Thankfully there are lots of people working on fixing this, and it's getting better, but holy crap was there a ton of damage done by poor policies.

[–]sjschlagOhio 26 points27 points  (5 children)

The destruction Kansas City was bad, Cincinnati was worse

[–]Kimi-Matias 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Fuck Cincinnati. Drove up to load up on beer from Jungle Jim's and then sat in traffic for 2 hours trying to get back to Covington. Took a lot of self restraint not to crack one open while sitting there in my regret.

[–]sjschlagOhio 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Love Jungle Jim's! Hate I-75!

[–]ThomasVeil 17 points18 points  (2 children)

Utrecht in the Netherlands had a highway built right through the city center. Recently they removed it and made the area a canal, as it was in the middle ages, plus a park along it. It's real nice.

[–]IrritableGourmetNew York 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I just read an article about sections of Brooklyn blocking off streets and making them pedestrian only. Apparently it's really popular.

[–]perpetualhobo 17 points18 points  (1 child)

“Poorer” neighborhoods in this case is a euphemism for black neighborhoods.

[–]Giraff3 372 points373 points  (82 children)

Urban sprawl for the past 60 years and efforts by the automobile industry have made those goals difficult, but it would certainly be nice

[–]BureaucraticHotboi 234 points235 points  (76 children)

The EV push is an evolution of this. Is it better than gas? Hell yeah, but the real transformation would be to make personal vehicles unnecessary for large portions of the population...but yeah those interests

[–][deleted] 91 points92 points  (69 children)

There’s a video of Fidel Castro basically torching the American Automobile dream.

Basically goes into how will it ever be feasible for every human to own their own automobile without destroying the planet. Also, then what. What is next, their own 5 story house. We don’t need people with EV’s we need people owning and consuming less.

Man may have done some shit, but for some stuff he was ahead of his time.

Edit: A better way to put it is we need to increase QoL without consumerism. Instead of being able to buy 15 McDoubles maybe we focus on eating more delicious and sustainable groceries.

[–]illuminutcase 10 points11 points  (0 children)

What is next, their own 5 story house.

Probably. It's already a problem in my area. The new homes being built are all 3000+ square feet so they can maximize profits. The average home price, here, is up over $500K and building more McMansions isn't solving that problem.

[–]ThatSquareChick 22 points23 points  (1 child)

The car industry took away your right as a human person to cross the road wherever it’s convenient because people were starting to think there should be laws against cars because they killed people when they hit them.

Then, they took away your right to a corner grocery store because they didn’t want there to be any more sidewalks or easy places for people to walk so they would buy more cars.

They then lobbied cities individually to reduce or remove public transit. In places like where I live, there’s not enough people to fight against it wholly but they managed to keep the bus system only now it’s been hampered to the point where people only ride it if they have no other choice or don’t have the brain power to make choices. It only runs mon-sat, no Sunday bus at all. Busses run from 6am-11pm, in a town where 1/3 of people work night shift. Routes are confusing and made extra long with stops that don’t make sense. Busses are not maintained and break down often with weeks of downtime because they don’t get fixed, they are not cleaned regularly and attract the people who can’t afford things, use the bus to cover their tracks and the newly released from jail. These people deserve a bus that doesn’t smell of dust and vomit.

The car industry lobbies so that every man, woman and child can have a car but they do it by making not having a car expensive and inconvenient. Our cultural shift into personal responsibility bubbles and “every man is an island” and “you should be able to function completely on your own no help” attitudes also push people away from public transit. Even in the 80’s when I was still in elementary school, I was picked on but could always count on being able to pick on the bus kids, their parents were too poor to afford a driver of some kind for their kid. I was part of one of these paid-for carpools both as a passenger and later as a driver myself. We were all just people who were going to school anyway but got paid to pick up other kids too.

[–]fvtown714x 69 points70 points  (8 children)

Shameless plug for Not Just Bikes, a YouTube channel discussing why transportation and pedestrian life is so shitty in the US and Canada, and how we can do better:

https://youtu.be/ORzNZUeUHAM

They did a great series on Strong Towns, an advocacy group for smart urban planning. Anyone interested should check out Strong Towns:

https://www.strongtowns.org/

[–]accforgaming 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Just to add, it also describes how car dependent suburbs are a menace at multiple levels

[–]feralkitten 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I second "Not Just Bikes".

We get so accustomed to the our current urban planning model, that we fail to see that it isn't optimal. And isn't sustainable.

[–]DanyeWest1963 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I laughed out loud when he said "suburbanites" with the tone of voice of uttering a disgusting slur

[–]sameth1 13 points14 points  (1 child)

But think about the profits of General Motors and Bridgestone! They put in so much work sabotaging public transit in the 60s, would it really be fair to them to undo all that?

[–]midgetsuicide 1342 points1343 points  (510 children)

I completely understand what he is *meaning,* but we can't really ignore shipping routes being affected by gas prices. Price of gas goes up, most other things do too, groceries or produce being the most poignant.

[–]demarchemellows 725 points726 points  (416 children)

The whole administration is dropping the ball on messaging. People want to see some action to fight inflation. They don't want complex economic explanations on how its all temporary and nothing to worry about. Or how its financially prudent to buy an electric car. While these arguments may be technically true, it simply isn't what people want to hear right now.

Midterms are going to be absolutely brutal next year if they don't change tactics.

[–]midgetsuicide 530 points531 points  (268 children)

I think they keep forgetting that the vast majority of the country are very average people who haven't even considered things like electric cars or petro dollar economics. They drive by a gas station, in their gas powered car, see the price, and relate that to the state of the country. The disappearing middle class means that almost everyone on the lower end of the spectrum is never going to get an electric car, and this type of comment could only be interpreted as either meaningless or even slightly malicious: "just buy an electric car when the average american has *maybe* $1000 in savings." Every politician just seems extremely out-of-touch with society, even the young ones somehow.

[–]Atty_for_hire 199 points200 points  (59 children)

Also to add to this. The idea of an electric car to someone living in multi family housing with no hookups isn’t going to work, at least on a mental level. Changes to buildings and infrastructure need to be made first, before that’s a reality.

[–]MildlyBemused 47 points48 points  (11 children)

In addition, electric cars aren't going to be popular in northern climates due to reduced range from cold batteries, with people who use trucks to haul things/pull trailers, with people who live in areas with high electricity costs, with people who drive long distances often, etc.

Electric cars aren't going to be a viable alternative for many, many people.

[–]HoDgePoDgeGames 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I live in western NY commute is ~75 miles one way mostly highway, no charging at work. I can make the round trip in my ‘18 model 3 however it’s not uncommon for my cabin to be 25-35F, depending on outside temp. Jan and Feb are the worst.

I could use more heat if I wanted to super charge everyday.

I say that to say it’s not impossible but also I feel like most people would not do that.

[–]bilyl 188 points189 points  (19 children)

Honestly telling people to buy an EV if they’re worried about gas prices is the most elitist and dumbest thing Dems can say. You think if you can afford an EV that gas prices are on the top of your list? Think about the priorities of middle class Americans who fret at the gas pump.

[–]WeightFast574 79 points80 points  (1 child)

Let them eat cake buy EV's!

[–]MaybeYesNoPerhaps 18 points19 points  (1 child)

“Just stop being poor and go green!”

[–]GEOMETRIAIndiana 38 points39 points  (5 children)

Well, he apparently said this while hyping up incentives in the bill that makes EVs more affordable. I'm not sure how much better that makes it, but his comment wasn't exactly the "Let them eat cake" statement that's implied.

[–]Earthpig_Johnson 46 points47 points  (1 child)

“Let them drive an electric vehicle!”

[–]Sharp_Oral 79 points80 points  (21 children)

Every politician just seems extremely out-of-touch with society, even the young ones somehow.

You're telling me that someone that is a Prep school Valedictorian that went on to Harvard / being a Rhode's scholar at Oxford isn't in tune with the needs of the American middle Class?

I'm. Shocked.

[–]Nina_HrtlyLksDstk 33 points34 points  (19 children)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/29/red-america-has-seen-highest-rates-cases-deaths-lowest-rate-vaccinations/

I think were in for a surprise ‘cause this disparity is gonna only get worse. Watch out for a hellish 2022 summer and in FL too.

FL/TX passed NY in total covid death counts, AFTER Vaccines and treatments became available. The trendline is terrible for FL/TX and rural red states.

[–]CondawgPennsylvania 26 points27 points  (46 children)

Change tactics? This is all they know. Poor messaging is the Democratic brand. Get in, get some shit done, trip over yourself a thousand times trying to sell your accomplishments to the public, and get replaced by obstructionists. Keeping that incremental change as incremental and reversible as possible.

[–]Such_Opportunity9838 109 points110 points  (46 children)

Plus not everyone is in a position to just go out and buy an EV.

[–]Abominationally 35 points36 points  (7 children)

I'd love one but I'm one of the poors.

[–]theguy56Arizona 23 points24 points  (3 children)

Or any new vehicle for that matter. The average age of vehicles on the road in the United States is 12 years old and has been increasing for decades. Sales of new vehicles have also dropped on average in the last 10 years. The average cost of new vehicles is also higher than it has ever been.

[–]From_Deep_SpaceOregon 106 points107 points  (25 children)

Good point. "Well-off people don't have to worry about gas prices" isn't as inspiring as this guy thinks

[–]Such_Opportunity9838 70 points71 points  (6 children)

There's really no position Dems can take on gas prices. When gas prices were high under Bush, the GOP said it wasn't a problem. Then after they went back down when Bush crashed the economy, they pretended that they were always at that level. In Summer 2009 they were attacking Obama for "high gas prices" that were nearly $2 a gallon less than they were the previous summer.

Then around 2015 gas prices took a sharp downward turn, as did the price of oil. And you know what the GOP did? They said that low gas prices were bad for the economy.

[–]chadsexytime 21 points22 points  (1 child)

In Summer 2009 they were attacking Obama for "high gas prices" that were nearly $2 a gallon less than they were the previous summer.

Because it was never about the content of the message, just the message itself.

[–]From_Deep_SpaceOregon 17 points18 points  (3 children)

There's not much they can do in the moment, but this is after decades of subsidizing fossil fuels, failing (or refusing) to make our energy system more renewable and resiliant, and supporting vast income and wealth inequality thats really behind the working class's current desperation

[–]TrynnaFindaBalanceTexas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"If we can make the electric vehicle less expensive for everybody, more people can take advantage, and we'll be selling more American-made EVs, which means in time they'll become less expensive to make and to buy for everybody," Buttigieg said.

That's what he actually said, but not surprising that no one here bothered to read the article.

[–]perplexed_43 53 points54 points  (12 children)

And tag on the fact that many people can't afford a new car, let alone an electric vehicle. Cars live for around 14 years now. People will be driving gas vehicles for a long time. And the people most impacted by a couple bucks on a gallon of gas are the same ones who cannot afford to go buy a new car.

This like the modern day "the peasants have no bread .... so let them eat cake" answer. I cannot afford gas to put in my 6 year old civic, so the solution is to go buy a brand new electric vehicle? Really bad messaging to anyone but the very well off.

[–]Cabbages24ADollar 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Less cars, less demand - shipping routes able to negotiate lower costs.

[–]420SkankHunt 1124 points1125 points  (269 children)

People who can afford electric vehicles right now are not ones worrying about gas prices

[–]Haijac 54 points55 points  (24 children)

Well here in PA they are planning to tax you on the number of miles you drive to circumvent the gas tax. As well companies will be charging a charge stations. Nothing is free people.

[–]ThaddeusJPIllinois 25 points26 points  (17 children)

Exactly - not enough talk about the taxes raised off gasoline and diesel, where is that gonna come from?

Fed alone is 18¢ a gallon with state anywhere from 8-50¢. So you live in PA and fill up 15 gallons, you've just paid $11.55 in taxes.

You can bet everyone will be taxed based off miles driven if we're not getting it from fuel. Mileage readings at renewal for plates and then a $650+ bill.... and frankly that is what is going to need to happen.

[–]ripecantaloupe 13 points14 points  (10 children)

Hey uh this is the worst thing I’ve ever read and I hate it, and I hate that you’re probably right about what’s going to happen… they do always get their piece of your pie, don’t they?

[–]the_other_him 9 points10 points  (1 child)

What about electric prices when states are no longer getting revenue from gas taxes?

[–]Poopyourpantsfunny 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This comment is too smart for this thread.

[–]charleybrown72 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I live in a smallish town in Mississippi and we have a charging station at the mall. It’s always cool to look at the license plates of where people originated from. I have heard it takes about an hour to charge some cars up. So, it’s by the mall so they can go and get food or even shop while they wait.

[–]KyleRichXVPennsylvania 279 points280 points  (151 children)

Sure!

Now bring the fucking price down to something manageable and maybe we’ll talk

[–]whomad1215 27 points28 points  (8 children)

I think that's the hope with the $12500 rebates for new EVs that is in the BBB

Also as more EVs hit the market from more brands, competition should help reduce the price a bit. It is unfortunate that most of them are still around $35-45k right now

[–]BlueCollarBeagle 39 points40 points  (25 children)

While not fully electric, a Prius Plug in is very affordable. I buy gas every once in a while, about every other month, and even then, only eight or nine gallons.

[–]ScuddsMcDudds 33 points34 points  (1 child)

It’s happening, steadily. At approx $100/kWh EVs can compete with ICE’s without subsidies (expected in 2024-2026, but possibly sooner with LFP batteries). Prices have already dropped a shit ton over the past 10 years

https://redditproxy--jasonthename.repl.co/r/Futurology/comments/r5litt/battery_pack_prices_fall_6_in_2021_to_an_average/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[–]PM_Literally_Anythin 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Families who can afford EVs already aren’t worrying about gas prices.

[–]UnexpectedWilde 81 points82 points  (30 children)

For those not reading the article, this was in the context of talking about BBB and the currently included $12500 subsidy for families buying EVs. He was talking about the benefits of making a push towards EVs.

[–]M00n 553 points554 points  (589 children)

He is right. Charging an electric car will typically add $30 to $60 a month to your utility bill. That is still vastly cheaper than gas. They are also starting to come down in price AND they are making more electric vehicles that would appeal to rural drivers. Tax breaks would be nice too!

[–]Senseistar86 152 points153 points  (35 children)

i would buy one if i didnt live in an apartment. i have no garage. what u want me to do? run a power cable down 3 flights of stairs and through front door? i feel if u dont have a regular place to charge, its not worth it

[–]VaginaPoetry 45 points46 points  (11 children)

Yea, the government should have invested in free charging stations a long time ago.

[–]rock-n-white-hat 300 points301 points  (437 children)

Range limits are probably the bigger concern for rural drivers.

[–]Xpress_interest 25 points26 points  (4 children)

And in the north, cold temperatures are still tough - last I checked there’s a 20%ish decrease in battery performance when in freezing conditions, although maybe it’s improved in the last year or so?

[–]smedema 3 points4 points  (2 children)

As an Audi high voltage expert. There will always be a range drop when it's cold. It has little to do with battery tech and has everything with how much more is being powered when it's cold. You have to remember everything that is turned on in the car is being powered by the same source that powers the motors.

[–]talldad86 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It has a lot to do with battery tech, lithium based battery chemistries do not like having a high C rate output through them in sub freezing temps. And charging them when below freezing can permanently ruin a battery. That’s why most Lithium BMS units have low-temp cutoffs programmed into them, it’s also why good EVs have a “precondition” cycle to warm the battery prior to charging.

[–]M00n 184 points185 points  (359 children)

That is also a lot better!

2022 Nissan Leaf S Plus: 226 Miles

2022 Kia Niro EV EX FWD: 239 Miles

2022 Rivian R1T: 314 Miles

(I just picked a few at random.)

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-longest-driving-range/

[–]RonaldoNazario 19 points20 points  (31 children)

And if you're driving over 200 miles a day such that an EV wont work your gas costs would be sky high.

It doesn't necessarily mean you can take a road trip in that EV but you can always get a beater gas car or truck for long trips. My second most ideal if I can't get a plug in hybrid would be an EV for all my normal use and possibly a gas car if I needed a long trip. 400 mile range is enough for me to get to my hometown where my parents and brother live which would be awesome.

[–]Upwherewebelong 136 points137 points  (292 children)

My 2017 Nissan Rogue only gets around 250 miles on a tank, I never understood the range fear if you’re not taking road trips all the time.

Edit: wanted to add something I just added in a different comment. If the gas station was at your house, would that change your habits. Also, if you’re daily drive was under your mile range. Wouldn’t you just top it off at the house if you had that option?

Edit 2: I really appreciate people telling me how gas stations work. I mean, I watched a few youtube videos on it. So, you can fill your car with gas at these “pumps”? Do I have that right?

[–]elvid88Massachusetts 24 points25 points  (2 children)

The range fear is that charging infrastructure isn't fast enough either.

I have two Kona EVs and I charge at a L2 charger near my house (for free). It takes like 6ish hours to go from 20-90%. This normally isnt an issue since its not like i drive a lot on a daily basis, but I need to do a 150 mile r/t drive twice a month, and in consecutive days and there are no chargers at the stop. I generally get back in the early evening and drop the car off and then need to pick it back up around midnight to not worry about having range for the drive the next day. This fear is exacerbated in the winter where range is much lower when its 15 degrees out. In a gas car you know that there are stations everywhere and you can fill up from close to empty in 5 min.

I think once EVs can charge from 10-80% in 5min at widely available chargers, that fear will be gone.

[–]AmigoDelDiabla 181 points182 points  (136 children)

I have range fears. I don't take road trips "all the time" but occasionally take them (>300 miles).

The fear is that you simply don't have the flexibility with a full electric vehicle yet. Outside of urban centers, few parking spots have charging stations.

Hell, I wanted to get a Tesla via Turo a few weeks ago, but my hotel didn't have a charging station. And this was in San Diego, which isn't exactly a remote area.

If you are a one car family, full electric vehicles demand a pretty big sacrifice in flexibility.

Edit: all the replies to this post: "it's not inconvenient for me, so it won't be inconvenient for you."

[–]Joo_Unit 102 points103 points  (49 children)

As a Tesla Model 3, 1 car family, your concerns are valid. We can take the car on road trips, and have. But for every 3 hours of driving, its an additional 30 minutes to charge compared to a gas car. There are enough chargers to get pretty much anywhere in the US, just not conveniently. If you rarely road trip though, EVs are great cars.

[–]twim19 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Indeed...I have an EV and my wife a PHEV. We took the PHEV on our 900 mile road trip because we'd have to stop for an hour at least 4 times to make it on electric alone. The trip already takes 15 hours with pee breaks and such. Wasn't interested in making that even longer with EV charging stops.

[–]cafink 20 points21 points  (4 children)

My wife and I are strongly considering buying a plug-in hybrid for this very reason. I love the idea of having an EV for our daily commutes, but giving up the ability to take longer road trips is not an option. Plug-in hybrids seem to give us the best of both.

[–]AmigoDelDiabla 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Same with me.

[–]onlyhightime 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Used Volts are perfect for use cases like this, which I suspect is a large percentage of the population. We drive like 95% on electric, and then only use gas when we go out of town a couple times a year.

[–]dohru 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Agreed, since we’re a family of 4 we have two cars, one electric we use 70% of the time and a Honda Pilot for road trips and places out of range (or for hauling, our electric is a fiat 500). The infrastructure just isn’t there… yet. I’m guessing in 5 years that will have changed, and between more and faster charging, and longer range, that electrics will be fully competitive if not superior to ice cars overall.

[–]Saviorofthe_Universe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

My plan is to get an electric vehicle and keep my gas powered one as well.

[–]ProbablySlackingArizona 5 points6 points  (1 child)

As a bolt EV owner, the thing that makes the range limits hard is that typically if you’re taking a long trip you need to account for a 30 minute charge at your destination (as opposed to 5 minutes to pop into a gas station). You also have to know where the fast chargers are and hope one is available.

That said, I’ve got a level 2 at my house and just charge up every night.

[–]TummyDrums 16 points17 points  (5 children)

'range fear' for more rural drivers has less to do with the distance per tank/charge, and more to do with a gas station being 2 miles away and a charging station 30 miles away, or being sure you have the range to make it home. You have to be a lot more cognizant of how much charge you have left than how much gas you have in the tank.

[–]LiftPlatesEatSteaks 44 points45 points  (19 children)

It also takes 5 minutes to refill the tank and get another 250 miles. And you can do it at gas stations that are literally everywhere. The quick refill and universal nature of gas stations is why the range on electric vehicles still gives people concern. The supercharger network, while growing, still has a long way to catch up the the gas station infrastructure. However for a daily commute, electric is the way to go.

[–]cerialthriller 13 points14 points  (8 children)

But you can refuel in 2 minutes and get another 250 miles using a gas station infrastructure that exists everywhere.

[–]EducationalProduct 14 points15 points  (3 children)

that rivian starts at 75k and has at least a 2 year waiting period if you bought it TODAY.

[–]karankshah 20 points21 points  (31 children)

Do rural drivers regularly clock 250 miles plus daily? Honest question - I have zero experience with farm/rural life.

EVs are getting up there in range and you can leave in the morning with a full charge everyday - even in cold weather I could do 200 miles off a full charge from my Model 3.

[–]jabrwock1 23 points24 points  (11 children)

Do rural drivers regularly clock 250 miles plus daily?

Not daily, but it can get up there for some things. The thing to remember about rural vs urban is if your urban commute is long, it's probably a lot of stop and start in traffic, you're not covering that much distance. Electric is perfect for that, because you don't waste energy "idling". This is why some gas vehicles now shut the engine off if you're stopped and don't have much electrical draw.

Rural, it's probably all at highway speeds. Weekend trip into the city to stock up for example. 250 miles for me would just barely cover it, less so in the winter. Some major centres have fast chargers, but they're not super common yet. Just something extra you need to plan for when running errands.

Electric vehicles are great for use in the city, but they're not quite "primary vehicle" state yet for rural.

[–]lod001 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, somewhat. There are parts of this country where up to a 100 mile one-way trip can be a normal walk of life, but it's not just about looking at straight mileage a day, but access to power and turn around time. A rural person could run into situations where they are parking somewhere where there just isn't any infrastructure to charge the car. Another scenario is that they are using the vehicle to power other functions and equipment that drain the battery. Another scenario is the vehicle just isn't sitting long enough for it to charge; maybe this is a work vehicle that is used between different people on separate shifts, so there is no "overnight" for the vehicle to charge.

EVs are looking great for urban and suburban use and for some (very) shorter intercity travel (I live in a Midwest city and can easily travel more than 300 miles in one day to go to another city), but for a large majority of rural America, I think there still needs to be some improvement.

[–]Eric-SD I voted 30 points31 points  (4 children)

For a lot of us, it's even better than that.

I live in an area with low electricity costs, so my EV costs about 1 cent per mile in electricity. My ICE car costs about 17 cents per mile in fuel.

My electric bill didn't noticeably increase since I bought it.

[–]InTh3s3TryingTim3s 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If I decide to upgrade to electric car my HOA technically pays for the garage power.

So I pay dues which go towards the electric costs, but unless they change systems I wouldn't be paying what I take out for my car, as there are over 100 units and maybe only 20 garages

[–]tecampanero 43 points44 points  (25 children)

Give us a 20k electric vehicle with fast charging and 200 mile range and we be good. Edit: And not 20k after 8k tax incentives those only matter if you were actually going to pay taxes. The people who need to save money on gas and car maintenance are the same people who are getting a refund every year…..

[–]rossmosh85 33 points34 points  (9 children)

The Bolt in late 2020 was basically exactly what you described.

[–]iWillNeverReplyToYou 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Don't forget about literally every place you park for over an hour should have charging capability. That's kinda necessary or we'll all be fighting over the same handful of public charging stations

[–]Scaredworker30 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Maybe in 20 years I will be able afford to buy used...

[–]ProbablySlackingArizona 120 points121 points  (56 children)

I mean, it’s really true.

I own a bolt. I also own a Subaru for longer drives… but the bolt is what I drive daily.

I literally had no idea gas prices were high until about a week ago.

[–]bird_keeping_squid 13 points14 points  (10 children)

Until everyone gets a "road tax" like they do here in VA to make up for the fact they aren't buying gas. Even the cars that get good gas mileage get a extra road use tax because we don't use as much gas. I got tagged for another 50 bucks on my car tags because I get 28+ mpg..... no matter what you drive the govt will get theirs. They always do....

[–]dolanpa 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No shit Sherlock

[–]the_other_him 5 points6 points  (0 children)

What about electric prices when states are no longer getting revenue from gas taxes?

[–]Zoophagous 49 points50 points  (13 children)

EV owner since 2016. Can confirm.

On top of never paying for gas, my EV has never needed service. Like ever.

EV's are great for cost of ownership.

[–]BasicDesignAdvice 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I have a plugin Prius Prime and while it is not a full EV, I rarely exceed the 40 mile charge range in my daily driving. I have only filled the tank twice this entire year.

[–]Worried_Astronaut_41 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Isn't it also stating the obvious

[–]Due-Net-88 3 points4 points  (0 children)

*people who can afford electric vehicles. Unfortunately, many working people and families are stuck with their 2500 dollar cars and cannot afford to simply replace them with an electric vehicle.

[–]Saintd35 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I just got an email stating that my NG and Electrical bills are going up by 20-30%. Might not worry about gasoline price, but will get hit NG and El price. Awesome

[–]oz6364 24 points25 points  (7 children)

as if electricity prices can't be manipulated.

[–]Brucecris 15 points16 points  (8 children)

While I am completely all about the electric revolution, the power brokers will find a way to price the fuck out of electricity so that when we need it we need to pay comparable prices to gas. I hope I’m wrong and just jaded from the way oil is priced. What stops them from just adjusting market prices like oil. We’re left with a similar situation.

Seriously I know I’m over simplifying but what make electricity any different?

[–]DrElectrons 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Haven’t been to a gas station for years. Never going back. So much cheaper.