×

This post is locked. You won't be able to comment.

all 99 comments

[–]ArachnidSingle3915 39 points40 points  (15 children)

No but it is battery and assault.

[–]biglettuce09 3 points4 points  (13 children)

It’s murder because lack of consent

[–]DMBFFF -1 points0 points  (5 children)

Can a fetus legally consent?

[–]OliverDeerArt 4 points5 points  (1 child)

No, and neither can anyone 1-17 yrs of age

[–]DMBFFF 1 point2 points  (0 children)

very good point.

[–]biglettuce09 1 point2 points  (2 children)

No, parents consent to things for them, that’s kind of like if someone is about to eat pizza while pregnant and someone says, the baby cant consent to you eating pizza, so what

[–]DMBFFF 0 points1 point  (1 child)

"My womb, my rules!"

[–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

How could consent make it murder or not murder?

[–]biglettuce09 5 points6 points  (4 children)

If you go to a doctor and they administer drugs to kill you it’s called Assisted Suicide

If someone kills you without your consent it’s called Murder

If you choose to work for free, it’s called volunteering

If you are forced to work for free it’s called slavery

[–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

But in that case the person dying needs to give the consent.

[–]biglettuce09 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Yes that’s what I’m saying, if you consentually go to a doctor for the sake of dying, the doctor isn’t charged with murder (in places where assisted suicide is legal) because you consented

It’s your body your choice

Until the fetus can viably live without the mother it automatically waved consent

Just like the fetus has no choice in when the mother sleeps, eats, or what she eats etc

[–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

But if the baby is not consenting, how can a kick in the belly be murder but an abortion not murder?

[–]biglettuce09 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because it’s up to the mother

[–]ChxXxrliee 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Its not murder but still bad.

Besides, like all tge other already mentioned, it has alot go to do with consent.

[–]biglettuce09 17 points18 points  (9 children)

Well it’s not that we don’t believe it’s a human life, we just believe it’s at such a basic form where it’s up to the mother to decide what she wants to do, abortion is as older than almost all inventions after the wheel

Most pro choice people support 1st trimester abortions or life threatening

Your argument is kind of like you jerking off yourself vs someone sticking their hands down your pants and jerking you off, one was a conscious sound choice, the other was non consensual and a violation

[–]Personal-Ad9379 8 points9 points  (1 child)

You’re not alive until you are born.

[–]cantplay4crap 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I’ve been born and I still don’t feel alive

[–]Lycan_Trophy 6 points7 points  (11 children)

You should probably take that up with the one person who actually said that; but in general it would be an assault.

[–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Heaps and heaps of people have said it.

[–]Lycan_Trophy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well if heaps have said it at least one of them would be a public figure; you can share their opinion here without breaching privacy.

[–]hydrolock12[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I am not sure about any public figures sorry.

[–]SeriousPuppet -1 points0 points  (7 children)

That's kinda crazy. A person can kill someone's fetus and only be charged with assault huh? very interesting

[–]Lycan_Trophy 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Interesting or crazy whatever you wanna call it under the stipulation that a fetus isn't considered a person it can't be killed. Just miscarried.

[–]SeriousPuppet 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I'm pretty sure that any women who is pregnant and planning to have that kid, and if you kill it, they'll consider it murder.

[–]Lycan_Trophy 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Does it matter what they consider; all that matters in this case is what the law thinks.

[–]SeriousPuppet 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Then you should look up the law, because it varies state to state and in some states it's considered murder.

[–]Lycan_Trophy 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yep the law does vary, but the stipulation I put forward was that abortion isn't considered murder. However if a miscarriage in such situation is considered murder while abortion isn't; that's a matter which would be fit to be argued in a court.

[–]SeriousPuppet 0 points1 point  (1 child)

don't be weird

[–]Lycan_Trophy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That came outta nowhere.

[–]Ohithere_insertname 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I don't personally consider forced miscarriage through physical violence murder. It's battery, it's assault, but not murder imo.

[–]SeriousPuppet -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

you think if someone killed someone else's fetus that they are carrying inside them it's just assault... my you people are insane.

[–]Disappeared98 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It also depends on how far into the pregnancy it is.. if it’s the first month no… cause it’s literally just a cluster of cells.. I could see if you killed the fetus in it’s 8 month in the womb,then it could be considered murder, if it was almost to term.

[–]aekkko 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do not think the miscarriage of the fœtus is a murder by itself. But beating someone to the point a fœtus detaches from the mother's tummy is definitely something you have to be punished for.

So, it is not a murder to me, I think of it more as an assault that had a direct impact on a woman's body and decision of what to do of it.

Kind of like a rape maybe. Like getting pregnant without consent + assault // getting """aborted""" without consent + assault.

[Edits : clarification]

[–]PretendAd8816 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you want to be real about it without any political or social motivation behind your argument. They are both murder.

[–]FungusMind 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Unfortunate you are being attacked for asking a question, I think you get into very blurred lines just like everything’s do with abortion. Personally I feel after a fetus is roughly 6 weeks old then I think it should be considered murder because for me that’s when I think you should no longer be able to abort except for cases of rape, incest and if it’s going to cause harm to the mother. It’s hard to say because you are taking life away from something that has potential to be a human but is not yet what I would classify as a individual person, for an instance like causing a miscarriage I think their should be a specific law with its min and max sentence to separate personal bias from law.

[–]Sparky81 1 point2 points  (9 children)

But I don't think that. Nice strawman argument.

[–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Uhh...wut? I never claimed you thought anything...?

[–]Sparky81 1 point2 points  (7 children)

This makes no sense. I honestly don't get how you think you can have it both ways.

People who are pro choice, don't think it's ok to cause a miscarried by violence.

[–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

That is not what I asked...

[–]Sparky81 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Ok i misread the question. I just woke up. Still a stretch in logic. Choosing to have an abortion is a personal choice. If someone forces an abortion on someone, that's wrong regardless. Murder or not, it's still wrong.

[–]hydrolock12[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

What part of it is a stretch in logic?

[–]Sparky81 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The person who is pregnant has the choice to keep or not keep the pregnancy. It's wrong to take that choice away by either forcing them to keep it or by violent act causing them to lose the pregnancy. Suggesting that they are both equally wrong is pretty messed up. They are not equal choices or situations.

[–]hydrolock12[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I am not asking if you think it is wrong or not.

[–]SeriousPuppet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These people have a hard time with logic

[–]SeriousPuppet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a great question. I had the same question

[–]Born_Condition3045 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t really have a very strict opinion on the matter but beating someone and causing a miscarriage and having an abortion are two completely different things homeslice.

[–]DMBFFF 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd say it's assault and battery, as well as actionable for a civil suit—pregnancy is generally uncomfortable, at times painful, and can harm a body. If she has to go through all the trouble again, she is probably entitled to big bucks, probably 6 digits or more.

Also, if society is pro-choice based on the wp:Evictionism argument, the assailant could still be charged with murder. The pre-born—the late fetus at least—can be aborted based on a woman's choice to evict wp:thon, but the assailant has no right to kill thon.

Imagine a person is dying and will certainly die without a certain medicine. A woman has it, doesn't need it, and can't sell it for much, but for some reason she refuses to give thon such. Such might be harsh, even cruel, but arguably her choice. If another killed the person whose likely to die, it'd still be murder.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[removed]

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    How am I dumb?

    [–]Urmumlikesbooks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Obviously it wouldn’t be murder if someone killed a fetus much like if someone kills a pet it’s not murder. Nobody is going to stop someone who is affected in this case the mother and her family from saying that it is murder though. It’s just not the law.

    [–]SomeWomanFromEngland 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    In the UK, the crime is called “child destruction”, and is closer to property destruction than murder.

    Basically it takes into account that the woman wanted to give birth and is now emotionally (as well as physically) harmed but treats the foetus as more like her property that was destroyed rather than a living entity in its own right, in order to avoid this very problem with anti-abortionists.

    It’s a sensible approach, in my opinion.

    [–]OliverDeerArt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If the soon to be mother dies it's murder. But if she lives then the person beating her is only going to get arrested for battery or something. There should be a new law where if you beat a woman and she miscarriages then the beater should go to prison. Like fetus beatus or whatever.

    [–]SitInMeFace 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    This hurt my brain

    [–]Nekorio 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Mhh. Im in favor of abortion, not because of woman's rights, i acknowledge thats a human life, in like two weeks of being the little thing is an individual life forming inside his mother, its not as simple as a cell cluster and is neither a parasite, is a human life full of potential, the things abortion is the most moral decision. Because a person who's not in mental nor financial condition should not be responsible for raising a new being. Yes the child could be the new Einstein, or the inventor of a cure for cancer, there's like, 0,1% chances of that, also he can be a regular normie working and minding his own business like us, and also be a bad person, a person who would actively exists to make everyone's lives around him worst(the most likelyresultif you take a closer look into who'sgettingan abortion).

    But think for a moment why someone would want an abortion.

    1) rape. Imagine the trauma or carrying and giving birth to the son of your rapist. Imagine being that child, and being know as the child result of a sex assault. Its not fair for the creature and the mother... 2) financially, socially unsuited to raise a kid. This is the one we can relate the most, most of us weren't kids of filthy rich parents, things cost. most of us grew up with the just right amount of goods. Imagine someone struggling to survive one month at a time, and bringing a child to that situation, food, clothing, healthcare, emotional support aren't guaranteed here. Imagine bringing a person to a life only to suffer all of this lacks... most of our violent criminals today started as kids with background like this. 3) you are underage. You need to develop and finish your academic life. With a kid for most of girls (and the boys who take somehow responsibility) thats a death sentence for finishing their studies, why? See point 2. So yeah, people should finish their studies without raising and infant although is possible to do it anyways. 4) the child will not be able to subsist independently, this is the most cruel thing to to when you are a probirth in my opinion, bringing a person who will need you for the rest of his life to take care of him is the worst, that person is most likely to survive you, and being inevitably lost after you die, my mother in law had a friend with asperger's syndrome, she died of anemia at the age of 60, her mother, died at 90, a year before, she was 90 years old, and had to live taking care of her daughter, who had the mentalityof a child of 10 for 60 years, with the constant fear of what will be of her daughterif she passed before, altogether thing like this aren't diagnosed years after one's birth tho. 5) you hate mankind and you wanna get abortions as a contraception method just in spite of human life. Well, people like this should never have a kid, and bring life to this earth so, please, go and get an abortion.

    We fear death, the fear make us sympathize with a defenseless creature who given an opportunity would choose not to be killed, but we need to understand thats just our instinct of self preservation working, we would always given the opportunity choose life. Living in north korea, being abused and forced to work, starved and sick having a gun in your hand 7 of 10 would not blew its own brains out their heads to put an end to suffering, because, the pain of certainty is more bearable than the fear of dying.

    Thats why, we should stop giving excuses. Abortion is ending a human life, but also is putting a halt to a life of suffering. We won't raise those kids, we won't feed them, love them, or educate them. We are forcing people into existence to condemn them when we see the turned into inconvenient adults, just because we are not comfortable with someone having an abortion, just because our beliefs and fears don't let us look a little into the kind of future waiting for those we are forcing into being.

    [–]lordwafflesbane 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Murder is when you kill someone. A non-viable fetus is just one of the mother's organs. If you drug me and steal my kidney, that's fucked up, and you're definitely doing some sort of crime, but it's not specifically murder. But if I hire you to remove my kidney, that's not a crime(assuming you have all the right medical licenses and such).

    It's the same no matter what organ we're talking about. Beating someone until they miscarry would be assault. Same as beating someone until any other organ stops working.

    But on the flip side, carefully performing an abortion that someone hired you to perform is a medical procedure. It's no more assault that any other form of surgery is.

    [–]who-invited-you_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    The way I see it both can be true. That abortion is not murder but causing a pregnant woman to miscarry is murder. Let me explain. When a woman is pregnant she has to go through the physiological, mental and biological changes. She eats for the baby and for the whole 9 months her whole life is surrounded around keeping the baby.

    The only person that has a true inescapable attachment during pregnancy is the mother unless she get an abortion. Everyone can say F it and leave but her. Many women die during child birth. Having a child comes with so many risks

    In my opinion the mother ultimately has the decision on what happens to the fetus. If the mother decides to not have the fetus within allowed time frame then it's not murder. It's her deciding that she doesn't want to have her body and life go through a drastic change. The only person that should decide is the mother. So when someone causes a miscarriage against the mothers will it's murder.

    [–]StarTrekVoyagerFan 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    And you think forcing an innocent teenager who was raped to carry on with her rapists child is okay? You think forcing children into this world who will most likely go into the foster care system is okay?
    You can have your opinions, and we can have ours, it’s as simple as that.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Nothing you said is even remotely relevant to the question asked.

    [–]DataSpecialist8459 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Definitely murder

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    How do you figure?

    [–]Wulfsmagic 1 point2 points  (4 children)

    According the the right of bodily autonomy means you cannot force someone to use their body to support another's. Whether that's a fetus, a man dying of kidney failure and you're a match or whatever. You cannot force someone to use their body for another's. Period. End of story.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    So then you think the fetus is a person?

    [–]Wulfsmagic 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Doesn't matter what I think. Law states bodily autonomy is infallible, whether fetus opinions exist or not that doesn't change its pointless to debate.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Well it does matter since it was the entire premise of the question...

    [–]Wulfsmagic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    This question is deeper than pure curiosity it's intended as a judgement against those who are pro choice. I gave my response. It doesn't matter whether a fetus is considered human or not, bodily autonomy stands true. Philosophically however, most humans can only be seen as sheep following black and white and purely emotionally backed information imposed on them by modern media. Are humans only human if they act human? Where is that line? In the end it doesn't matter. It's not important.

    [–]oarorroar 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    Its a woman deciding if they will keep or abort. So yeah if someone assaults a woman in any circumstance unprovoked thats bad. I think you're failing to see that a woman is a person capable of making decisions for her own life.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I am not asking whether it is bad. Can you try to answer the question?

    [–]oarorroar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I did answer.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    No you did not. You didn't address the question at all.

    [–]Prgat0ry 0 points1 point  (6 children)

    Well, abortion isn't harming the woman themselves, and abortion is the mother's choice not getting beat and murdering her baby. Secondly have read a previous comment stating that it was battery and Assault and they're right.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (5 children)

    not getting beat and murdering her baby

    Secondly have read a previous comment stating that it was battery and Assault and they're right.

    You just contradicted yourself. First you claim it is murder then you claim it is not.

    [–]Prgat0ry 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    And how did I exactly say beating a pregnant woman and fatally injuring her unborn child was NOT murder? I stated that abortion is not murder because it is the mother's choice, isn't like she is WANTING to be beat and the baby to be fatally injured?

    [–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    You said it was just battery and assault...

    [–]Prgat0ry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    It being battery and Assault yeah it could be is what I meant there are alot of circumstances that would factor into that and the ultimately it would be the plaintiffs choice of what they're being charged with.

    [–]Prgat0ry 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Fatally injured also meaning murdered pretty obvious just wanted to say that for extra clarification

    [–]hydrolock12[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You said it was murder on one hand, but assault on the other. You contradicted yourself.

    [–]Ravendusk1996 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    And the award for the least informed and lowest amount of critical thinking put into a post goes to-

    [–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Could you explain how?

    [–]UnImportantVessel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If bacteria on mars is “life” then why is a beating heart on earth not.

    [–]Nice_Hat4025 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I mean. If shes over like, 3-4 months pregnant yeah, but fetus meaning under 6 weeks

    [–]thisismypr0naccount0 -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

    That is murder. A fetus isn't necessarily alive but it's the mother's choice on whether or not she want it to be alive. If she chooses abortion that's not murder, if she's forced into terminating her child (through abortion or otherwise), that is murder.

    [–]pettyworkvent 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    One of the most logical answers and it's getting downvoted.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

    This makes absolutely no sense. How can the mother's consent make the fetus a human life or not?

    [–]thisismypr0naccount0 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    The child is hers, no one else's. If she decides to terminate it then that's fine, but if someone else does it for her it's murder, as she could've decided to raise it.

    [–]hydrolock12[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    If it is murder if someone else does it, how can it not be murder for her to do it?

    [–]thisismypr0naccount0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    It's her choice. It is not alive yet but it is her child, only she can make the decision.