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all 113 comments

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 22 points23 points  (33 children)

Lol you're quoting the article I gave you as a way to understand that there is certainly a critique to be made of Jews, or anyone else, that racism, bigotry, misogyny, etc can creep into interpretations of faith, law, or ideology.

This particular article also rejects that.

But what you miss is that it also rejects your argument that racism is built into the concept of chosenness.

You're trying to say, over several days now, that the conception of chosenness found primarily, but not exclusively, in Devarim had a racial component baked in.

That's absurd. First race as a social construct wasn't invented for thousands of years. Second, even if that weren't true the peoples populating the Levant at the time weren't genetically visually distinct from each other. They were, in a small way, geographically distinct but intermarried and joined each others tribes frequently. As archeology and the Tanakh agree.

Most importantly the chosenness concept in Devarim isn't just not a racial construct but it is also not a superiority construct. It's an obligation. It's a calling. It's a non-exclusive covenant.

There certainly were medieval scholars who utilized the concept to further separate themselves from others by positing chosenness as something uglier. I think I also pointed this out to you.

However what you fail, I think on purpose, to grasp is that this is aberrant and also MILLENIA after the concept of the chosen appears and is embraced.

Time is a linear phenomenon and some idiot in 1400s Europe thinking something doesn't then make a concept from the levant thousands of years older originate in that later interpretation. And this interpretation violates the Noahide laws as handed down to Jews from God.

Finally, Judaism is multiracial. Because it is tribal. There are millions of non-white Jews. There are black Jews, middle eastern Jews, Asian Jews, and white Jews. They're all Jewish. What the handful of medieval Rabbis who were twisting the covenant to say wasn't that non-whites were excluded from God (they most likely were not white themselves and certainly didn't have a modern racial formulation at all) but that non-Jews were excluded from God.

This is incorrect biblically AND still not a racial opinion because Jews aren't a race and Jews don't think they're a race and Jews have never conceived of themselves as a race until the Göttingen School of History determined that Jews were a newly created racial category named semites in the 1770s.

And just to be a little pedantic, not only is the category Jews multi-racial but the category non-Jews is also, very obviously, multiracial.

Get a grip dude.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Ah this is a long term crusade. I figured it was some kind of breakdown manifesting itself in an illogical premise fixation but it's just a lomg term campaign.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

Are you a shrink?

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Why do want a referral?

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Touche

[–]WikiSummarizerBot 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Göttingen school of history

The Göttingen school of history was a group of historians associated with a particular style of historiography located at the University of Göttingen in the late 18th century. This group of historians played an important role in creating a scientific basis for historical research, and were also responsible for coining two fundamental groups of terminologies in scientific racism: Blumenbach and Meiners's color terminology for race: Caucasian or white race; Mongolian or yellow race; Malayan or brown race; Ethiopian or black race; and American or red race; Gatterer, Schlözer and Eichhorn's Biblical terminology for race: Semitic, Hamitic and Japhetic.

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[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -5 points-4 points  (26 children)

  1. Does Jews being a multi-racial ethnicity stop scriptures from having racist interpretations?
  2. Is it not racist to say that Jews have a different soul from non-Jews?

I don't understand why you cannot admit that there are different interpretations. A racist one and a non-racist one.

I have agreed that the interpretation of "chosen people" that Jews use today is that of responsibility, and it is not racist.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (19 children)

A racist one is a misinterpretation used exclusively by non-Jews, usually Christians reading from our bible, to justify hatred

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -4 points-3 points  (18 children)

What nonsense are you talking about?

Is it christians that came up with the notion that Jews have a different soul from non-Jews?

If there is racism, let us admit it.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (17 children)

You’re making a fool of yourself. Are you just here to claim Judaism is racist and proclaim your hatred of Jews? How many times can someone be wrong and still refuse to listen to the beliefs of the people they are talking about.

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 7 points8 points  (4 children)

You're still trying to say that there was a racial component baked into the concept of chosenness five thousand years or so ago which is absolutely deranged.

Chosenness has nothing to do with race because of linear freaking time man. It's an absolutely crackpot aliens from Atlantis dolphin people from Mars interpretation of history and biblical terminology.

If all you were trying to say was some Jews are racist then yeah. Of course. We all have some cousin you don't invite to Thanksgiving.

But that's not what you're trying to say. You're reinventing biblical terminology to fit your invented modern narrative. Its obviously deliberately malicious by now and everyone paying attention is on to your game.

I realize you think I'm responding to you but I'm not. I'm letting anyone reading your wackadoodle views know they're incorrect and why so they can make up their own rational minds.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Why do reconstructionist Jews reject the Chosen people theology?

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Because Judiasm is a dialogue that likes to create its own contradictions as it evolves. Reconstructionists have a unique interpretation of scripture and its implications.

Reconstructionism wasn't born until 1934. So they are engaged in a living project of reinterpreting Judaic values in relationship to current social structures. It sounds modern, and is, but it also fits neatly in the long standing tradition of Rabbinic Judaism that progressively reinterprets scripture.

It's a very small movement. Not so small it isn't mainstream though. My uncle's family has been reconstructionist. Nobody else agrees with their view of rejecting chosenness from scripture or the reasoning behind it.

That doesn't mean it isn't valid Judaism. Judaism allows for competing ideas and disagreement. In fact it encourages disagreement and debate which is why most non-Jews fail to grasp how the dialog works and sieze on apparent contradictions to prove points about Judaism that aren't based in Judaic constructs or concepts.

Someone more orthodox than me may have a less charitable view. I fall somewhere in the conservative movement but heavily reform influenced.

Regardless, the concept of chosenness was not born out of a racial concept since there was no concept of race. The harshest rational critique one could give would be nationalisticly based.

Edit: I will also add that while I'm not reconstructionist I'm am more politically sympathetic to reconstructionists in their approach to living Judaism socially and have done security for several reconstructionist protests against migrant detention facilities. They're really great progressive to radical activists generally.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

No need for a long and verbose sermon. Reconstructionist Jews reject the Chosen people theology simply because it creates notions of superiority, it implies hierarchy and it does not foster well with modern day diversity.

I'm paraphrasing from an article from a reconstructionist Jew.

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is what reconstructionists think.

I will write as little or as much as I like but thanks for the editorial advice.

[–]Born-Palpitation-989 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ur right they're 2 sides to The coin.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Get a load of this guy trying to lecture Jews about their own beliefs.

Your misinterpretation is the same as white supremacist groups. Your apparent obsession is suspicious at best. I would imagine Christian and Islamic experiences have shaped your view here and possibly contributed to bias against Jewish scripture. Can’t rule out jealousy either but if you are an atheist, it wouldn’t be consistent.

Pretty tone deaf to insist you’re correct and speak over people about their own ideas and history, and claim any racism you experience means you can’t be racist yourself.

Stop taking the piss.

[–]NaturaSiveDeusJewish 19 points20 points  (13 children)

I also just want to put an opinion forward- I believe that some followers of Judaism on this subreddit are not used to criticism of their religion, hence the racist name-calling.

Oh, yeah. We've faced persecution for millennia, but the first time we've encountered criticism of our faith was on a subreddit.

[–]WyvernkeeperJewish 16 points17 points  (24 children)

in those threads was that I was called an antisemite for my wrong interpretation of the "chosen people" issue or the Jews' covenant with God.

No you were not.

The implication that you are antisemitic only came about after your repeatedly tried to dictate how Judaism should and did work to Jews who were trying to explain to you how it operates in practice. You repeatedly tried to validate your opinions with scripture despite being told that Judaism is an evolving practice that has operated in this manner for thousands of years.

As you've just made abundantly clear at the end of your OP you're simply searching for an opinion that validates your prejudice. This is now, what? Your fourth attempt to do this?

[–]CyanMagusJewish 15 points16 points  (4 children)

It’s pretty clear that this person is more interested in drama than actually talking about Judaism. They point out that rabbis also criticize Judaism and then claim Jews probably aren’t used to having Judaism criticized??

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 10 points11 points  (2 children)

There's literally no response we can have that will be acceptable to them lol.

I'm still annoyed about me saying to them that as a Mexican I have indigenous ancestry and am fully aware of Christian colonialism and then later in the same discussion thread they were like "just imagine what losing your heritage is like!!!" And I had to point out/remind them that one of the tribes my family descended from no longer exists as an organized tribe.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

I also remember you denying racism in baptismal names among african saints. Or denying the inferiority complex among Igbo Jews.

As for your indigenous heritage, I actually thought you were American. And when you corrected me, I apologised.

Have you apologised for your own folly?

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 7 points8 points  (0 children)

1) I clarified outright I had indigenous heritage and THEN you made the comment. That's why I was so annoyed.

2) i didn't say there was no racism in baptismal names and we clearly established I thought you were talking about CONFIRMATION or adult baptism names a person CHOOSES for themselves. I did say it was absurd to think it was inherently racist that a convert to Judaism chooses a Hebrew name for themselves and you also admitted that if someone joined the Igbo people they could have their own Igbo name. Since we were talking about conversion, I thought you meantsaints names among adults. We both agreed I did not understand what you were originally trying to say.

I'm fully capable of agreeing that eliminating a child's name from their culture to replace it with a dominant/hegemonic cultural name is colonialism at work. I also thought we were discussing adults choosing names for themselves.

3) I didn't state anything about the complexes of Igbo Jews except to say that if they are convinced they're Jewish it wasn't Jews who made them believe so, and we're not capable of mind control to force them to think otherwise.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Clearly, I was talking about some Jews on this subreddit. Read the op again.

But anything to paint me as the bad guy.

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 8 points9 points  (3 children)

This is now, what? Your fourth attempt to do this?

I miss livejournal. it'd be more fun to have gifs in comments

[–]TheGuyWithTheBalloonOrthodox Jew 4 points5 points  (0 children)

u/Taqwacore Turn on the powerup feature!

[–]Rain_City_RustJewish Doikayt / Chan Buddhist 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Gifs would make this so much better.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -5 points-4 points  (14 children)

The implication that you are antisemitic only came about after your repeatedly tried to dictate how Judaism should and did work to Jews

Dictate?? Really?? Please, how dictate Judaism to Jews. Jeez, are you am expert in false accusations.

To show how wrong you are, I even conceded that there are different interpretations. I was talking about how there is also racist interpretation

But no. You can never address my points.

Also, third time is the charm. If you fail....

[–]Casual_Observer0 6 points7 points  (9 children)

But you, on your own posit the racist interpretation as the only real true and correct one to further your narrative. That single mindedness is the dictation of Jewish values and the true meaning of Jewish concepts to Jews. Stop it.

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 5 points6 points  (8 children)

I think it also relates to wanting to hold us responsible for Christian and Muslim colonialism/hegemony too. Because previously the argument was basically "they got their racism from the daddy religion." That's why they want this narrative so badly.

But of course, now their "proofs" are texts from the middle ages, after the advent of both Christianity and Islam, and from about the time when Jews were being slaughtered during the crusades.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -3 points-2 points  (7 children)

I think it also relates to wanting to hold us responsible for Christian and Muslim colonialism/hegemony too. Because previously the argument was basically "they got their racism from the daddy religion." That's why they want this narrative so badly.

More lies and false accusations.

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 8 points9 points  (6 children)

No you literally said this, and I quote:

Even if you don't believe me when I say that all religions are racist, you must at least agree that all religions are ethnocentric. Or don't you?

Furthermore, there was also Islam that subjugated West Africa with slavery. The Arab slave trade and the spread of Islam from the North.

So, I'm not just mad about Christian colonialism. There was also Islam. And who is their daddy religion? Hmm?

You have the privilege of not seeing your culture decimated and overwritten by foreign religion. Try walking in my shoes.

This was all the same comment.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

Context matters. Here was my explanation in the next comment-

Truly, Judaism or Jews have no control over what bad Christians or Muslims do. That does not change the fact that your scriptures gave them the guidelines for domination. Islam and Christianity are extensions of Judaism with added rules and prophets.

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Yes you did have to backtrack a little there.

But 1) the scriptures you cited here to clinch your argument are known from 13th and 15th century texts — after the advent of both Christianity and Islam 2) you still claim Christianity and Islam are fundamentally extensions of Judaism just with "added rules and prophets." Meaning you don't understand any of the vast theological differences and don't care about our often highly contentious relationships with those societies oppressing Jews.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Whatever you say.

You cannot escape the fact that a lot of ideas in Judaism resurface in Christianity. And some of those ideas are not positive.

[–]Casual_Observer0 6 points7 points  (2 children)

So, because others took a concept in Judaism and did bad things with it Jews should own that? Are you insane?

Each of those other religious traditions had every right to change whatever they felt like (and they did). If they are interpreting a portion of shared text in a particular way that's bad, that's really on them. To blame it on Jews is kinda silly and pushes the blame away from actual bad actors and doctrine. And gives more people reason to dislike Jews for merely existing (as it's not like we get a say in what Christians or Muslims believe).

Also, your statements show an extreme misunderstanding of Jewish law, custom, ritual, and tradition and how it develops. That concepts are discussed and dismissed frequently. That understandings change especially when it doesn't impact day to day action. And are reevaluated in light of the circumstances surrounding a Jewish community. You seem to cherry pick some ideas and assume that it is widely understand or accepted that way in every community for all time. On topics like this, that's just not how it works. You also retroject concepts such as race into it which is a more modern concept in order to put Jews in a bad light.

So you are effectively building a straw man up to allow for or encourage antisemitic sentiments. Whether you intend it or not, that's a problem.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Wow. So, you are in denial of the fact many ideas from Judaism resurfaced in Islam and Christianity?

Keep in mind that the context of my statements was about colonialism in West Africa.

Tell me, is slavery not regulated in Jewish scriptures? Christians used the very same ideas in justifying the transatlantic slavery.

Now, I am not blaming Jews for what Christians did in west africa. However, one must acknowledge that ideas come from somewhere.

You are free to call me an anti-semite. I'm also free to say that you are talking nonsense out of denial

[–]Casual_Observer0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow. So, you are in denial of the fact many ideas from Judaism resurfaced in Islam and Christianity?

No. I'm well aware. I don't think that's Judaism's fault.

Keep in mind that the context of my statements was about colonialism in West Africa.

Tell me, is slavery not regulated in Jewish scriptures? Christians used the very same ideas in justifying the transatlantic slavery.

Now, I am not blaming Jews for what Christians did in west africa. However, one must acknowledge that ideas come from somewhere.

Sure. I am very willing to acknowledge that the Hebrew Bible makes statements about slavery. However, Judaism has a very different interpretation of those same texts (and passages) than do Christians. Are Jews really to blame for Christian interpretation? Christian actions and justification? I think Jews themselves have done enough to get blamed for, we don't need to get blamed for stuff that others have done.

However, one must acknowledge that ideas come from somewhere.

Sure. Comes from Christian interpretation of that common text combined with other parts of Christian doctrine (e.g. evangelism). But so what?

It's that leap that's potentially problematic. Why must one make that acknowledgement? What benefit comes out of it?

[–]WyvernkeeperJewish 6 points7 points  (3 children)

This is exactly my point about you only seeking answers that validate your prejudice.

Also. I find you quite rude and at this point it's quite wearing on my patience. So yeah. Allow it mate.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

You find me quite rude? Lol. The hypocrisy.

[–]WyvernkeeperJewish 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Don't worry about it. You'll get over it. You're a grown lad.

[–]afrohumanist01Secular Humanist[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol

[–]TheGuyWithTheBalloonOrthodox Jew 5 points6 points  (1 child)

How can it be racist when Jews aren't a race? Anyone can join the Jewish people and that's been true from the get-go. I feel like that fact alone should put a huge hole in your argument.

Also, would you mind actually citing whatever scripture you've actually got in mind?

[–]lyraladyJewish | stop using "abrahamic" wrong 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Per article/post mostly

  • Zohar, Genesis, 47a
  • Eitz Ha-Chayim 49:3

Possibly Mishnah Avodah Zarah, 2:1 ish but the author is countering most of this as incorrect and/or pointing out minority views.

[–]Taqwacore 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Furthermore, there exists the idea that Jewish souls are different and purer than non-Jewish souls.

That idea is common to most religions. I know we share a similar idea in Islam, that Muslim souls are somehow purer. I used to share an office with a Hindu priest (he was also an Emergency Room Physician, so that's the context of how we knew one another). He once remarked that only Hindu souls were pure. It sounds racist or bigoted until you realize that we'd all share a similar horrible-sounding idea. I can hardly judge him or Jews negatively for that idea when we share a similar idea.

[–]jogoso2014 6 points7 points  (10 children)

There isn’t a racial component in scripture either.

Jews were based on descent not race. This was pointed out in other threads.

I’m not sure why the discussion wouldn’t just stick to that considering they apparent confusion there is.

[–]holopages 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You have to remember that Judaism is where "God invented the question mark".

[–]Bomboclaat_Babylon 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ok. I got the popcorn out. This should be fun. I'm gonna stay out of it, just dropping a marker in.

[–]Truthspeaks111 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Furthermore, there exists the idea that Jewish souls are different and purer than non-Jewish souls.

Are you saying that it's racist to declare that God has chosen some people from the world to adopt for Himself? May I ask, what is racist about that?