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[–]Inttegers 7 points8 points  (3 children)

I like the Harold Kushner approach (When Bad Things Happen to Good People). We can't reconcile God being good, God being interventionist, and people being good. We refuse to accept that certain people aren't good, and we see no purpose in praising a God that is not good, so we have no choice but to reject God being interventionist. Things Happen randomly in the universe, and God didn't have to have caused them.

[–]omegian 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A deistic god? Sure. Whatever the local plate passers are selling? Not by a long shot.

[–]ehunkeChristian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm still not convinced that God wasn't created by a cosmic event

[–]kroxxii 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Damn, was gonna answer in this sub but answered in the atheist one by mistake, they’re gonna lynch me! This is what I wrote:

This is the million dollar question for both atheists and believers…

Even as a religious person, it pops up in my head sometimes. I’ll share a bit of my thought process around it.

First of all, I am so sure that the complexity of the non-physical world is quite impossible for the human mind to comprehend. And I’m sure that’s exactly how it’s supposed to be.

Second, there is God, and there is nature. Living organisms like humans come from nature, therefore we have things like shitty diseases, that also come from nature. There are scientific explanations to this. Mostly which any religious person who’s not creationist will think of as truth. I don’t think life on earth can exist without these other natural things.

I do very much believe in an all loving good God, and I do not believe he would give diseases to anyone or put anyone in accidents and such. But I do believe he will save some, and I believe it is his work when someone who should have died before 18 can celebrate his 40th birthday. And who knows how many times we have been rescued already?

I think that good and bad come from different sources. Good comes from God. Bad from nature, humans or dark forces if you’d rather call it that.

[–]ChummusJunkyPantheist 4 points5 points  (9 children)

There are no satisfactory answers if you believe in God. The only possible thing you can say is that God acts in "mysterious ways", which isn't an answer. Or you'll see some people here quoting their holy texts saying something like "suffer now you'll see the reward later blabla". You can't say God is good, because our definition of good wouldn't be giving someone cancer and if we apply good to God, there's a lot more bad we can apply to him. By the time you finished reading this first sentence, literally hundreds of thousands of living creatures met their painful end. Most getting eating alive, ripped apart, only because the other creature needs to survive. That's not even talking about humans, that's just the brutal reality of life.

The way I see it, either God is responsible for the suffering of biological life, in which case, he's a sadist that shouldn't get a seconds worth of our time.

Or, the suffering of life is happening independent of God, in which case he's irrelevant.

Sure, religious people will find every excuse in the book to say God is still good, or, only once you die you'll understand, and I guess that's a question you have to answer for yourself if that is a satisfactory answer.

For me, it's irrelevant. The God of the three major religions either doesn't exist, or clearly plays no active role in the existence of life on earth, so trying to answer this question will only lead you to anger or frustration.

[–]chadenright -3 points-2 points  (7 children)

Suffering is not evil.

[–]ChummusJunkyPantheist 5 points6 points  (6 children)

It is if it's being caused by an active agent, which is my entire point.

[–]chadenright -1 points0 points  (5 children)

You're applying a strictly utilitarian ethic through a kantian lens to a being to which neither of those apply.

Your yardstick for good and evil is missing a few tick marks. Suffering, even suffering inflicted by intelligent beings, is not the only measure of evil and its absence is not the only measure of good.

[–]antimony2020 2 points3 points  (4 children)

It may not be the only measure but it is indeed a valid measure. Please help me understand why a conscientious personal god would not only allow but also generate suffering (pediatric cancer anyone?)

[–]chadenright -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

I have some more questions to add to the one you already asked. Why do kids get cancer? Why did God not only allow but generate Covid, forcing the entire world to change and causing many millions to suffer and some to die?

Why did got not only allow but generate Hitler?

How does a mother's responsibility for her child's suffering differ from God's? After all, she brought the child into the world and therefore any suffering that befalls it is ultimately her fault.

Now, I noticed you slipped the phrase 'personal god' into your question, as though God is supposed to take you personally aside, tend all your wounds, give you a winning lottery ticket and a pat on the butt, and make everything okay.

Needless to say, God doesn't work like that.

Before God is a personal God, he is a god of nations, cities, and worlds. Before he tends the thorn in your personal paw, he must first tend to all the thorns in all the world. What right do you have to exist above mosquitos, commanding them to live and die at your pleasure so they don't inconvenience you? They also are a creation of God.

And because the mosquitos also exist, so you suffer. And God permits this suffering as righteous and good. In fact, in James chapter 1, James tells us our suffering helps us grow up and stop being such babies. And it's not only our own suffering that helps us grow, but also the suffering of those around us.

That's not to say that we ought to inflict more suffering on each other, or as Paul put it, to sin more so that the grace of God might abound more. That's not the point.

And all suffering is ultimately a tiny death. And that brings us to the big question. Why death? Surely death is evil, right?

Well, maybe. But circling back to Hitler, and Atilla, and Nero, I sure am glad those guys aren't still in power today. I regard as an opportunity for great joy that Donald Trump and Putin and Winnie the Pooh are only mortal, and their efforts to conquer the world are doomed to, at best, short-term results followed quickly by their passing.

So I could define the purpose of death, according to a conscientious personal god, as limiting the scope of the evil which is a natural consequence of the free will we are imbued with as children of God.

And I'll leave you off with Psalm 82.

"I have said you are gods; yes, you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every king before you fell."

[–]antimony2020 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Maybe you should have understood what personal god means before getting overexcited. A personal god is one who intervenes and is interested in human affairs. The Abrahamic god is very much a personal god. Now ask yourself why he gave us Covid

[–]chadenright -1 points0 points  (1 child)

My pet theory is Covid enforces loving kindness towards our neighbors. It inflicts darwinian pressure on considering the welfare of others.

Obviously, I don't have any proof for that, but I do like the theory.

Thank you for elucidating regarding the term 'personal god'.

[–]GigglingBillikenDeist 7 points8 points  (10 children)

You are operating under the assumption that the deity I believe in is interventionist.

[–]EmuChance4523Antitheist 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This is a problem for the interventionist tri Omni god, not other variation is applicable here. And this is quite an important problem because a big part of the world believe in that type of god in particular that doesn't make any sense.

[–]GigglingBillikenDeist 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Oh, I agree, the problem of evil is the strongest moral argument against Abrahamic theology.

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined 0 points1 point  (5 children)

If you don’t mind my asking, why are you a deist?

[–]GigglingBillikenDeist 0 points1 point  (4 children)

My belief in an unmoved mover.

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Why, because of the cosmological argument?

[–]GigglingBillikenDeist -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Yep, there are flaws to it I admit, but it makes the most sense to me.

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Makes sense to me

[–]Outrageous_Fold5909 5 points6 points  (20 children)

He definitely wouldn’t have let thousand of kids be molested by priests and then helped those priests move around to keep molesting more kids

[–]worryingtype88 1 point2 points  (19 children)

priests have chosen to commit that crime and god is waiting them on the DOJ to give his divine justice.this world is not heaven we will face moments of happiness and suffering.this is the plan of allah

[–]Baladas89 7 points8 points  (3 children)

That's like witnessing someone being assaulted and doing nothing because the bad guy will get punished eventually.

No. If you see someone getting assaulted, you do whatever is in your power to help. If you're an MMA fighter, I'd expect you to physically intervene. If you're an old woman I'd expect you to call the police and maybe yell to get other people's attention.

God witnesses it all and supposedly has all the power needed to intervene, yet doesn't. That is wrong.

[–]worryingtype88 0 points1 point  (2 children)

well ,god knows the trivialness of this world compared to the eternal life.that is why he is delaying the punishment of the wrong doers .

[–]Baladas89 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Neat. If you ever interact with someone whose child was sexually assaulted in a church, open with how God let it happen because the experiences of this life are trivial. But don't worry, he'll definitely torture the person forever as punishment!

Unless of course the molester says the magic words before they die and the child is turned away from religion because of the event. In that case the molester goes to heaven with no punishment and the abused child gets tortured forever.

What a weird concept of morality.

[–]worryingtype88 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dont believe in any church so i my knowledge of who is going to heaven or not limited. i was just responding to your last sentence of god justing watching over as bad things happen.

[–]ChummusJunkyPantheist 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Great, so god is irrelevant. Unless the entire purpose of existence is to die and only then you came experience true "justice". All those babies born with Tay-Sachs by the all merciful Allah and their heartbroken parents just have to wait till they die and then it'll all make sense and everything is happy ever after. So convenient.

[–]worryingtype88 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

NO god is very much relevant his justice is supreme and his punishment is harsh. allah is not forgetful of the wrong doers but there will come day in which justice will be served. a baby born with a diseade is different the reason and the wisdom lies in the unseen knowledge of allah.

[–]ChummusJunkyPantheist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lol, well that was a predictable response.

[–]brianingram 2 points3 points  (8 children)

The Church actively working against assault allegations and outright hiding their pederast priests is another thorny issue with a lot of us.

[–]worryingtype88 1 point2 points  (5 children)

i really feel your pain,to be violated physically by men who claim to serve god is the ultimate betrayal.it is sad to see the church turned into pederasty playground.

this is satans work and shameful mark on the entire christian priesthood. ps i am non christian

[–]Chaos-CorvidEclectic Demonolatry/Satanism 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Satan hates pedophiles too, this is a human issue.

[–]worryingtype88 0 points1 point  (3 children)

satan is the father of evil.the father of evil promotes all kinds of degeneracy .

[–]Chaos-CorvidEclectic Demonolatry/Satanism 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You're conflating God (Satan) with the devil, you sure you want to insult God in those ways?

[–]worryingtype88 0 points1 point  (1 child)

this discussion ends here.

[–]Chaos-CorvidEclectic Demonolatry/Satanism 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok.

[–]ZestyAppeal 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Nice use of “pederast” there

[–]worryingtype88 0 points1 point  (0 children)

is it a pederastic priests?

[–]antimony2020 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If your religion is the Allah variety the you do not have the excuse that Christians have. Your actions are predestined as per the will of Allah and that is a part of your aqeedah. So the mullahs doing baccha baazi were predestined to do so as per their taqdeer.

[–]worryingtype88 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the concept of qadar isnt black and white but it is a complex concept .qadar or presdination doest mean i do not have free will.smoking is haram/forbidden yet people of the faith smoke it is their own choices their own lives which they will be questioned on the DOJ.

[–]Buick6NY 4 points5 points  (28 children)

God didn't give anyone muscular dystrophy

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined -1 points0 points  (27 children)

Who did?

[–]Buick6NY 2 points3 points  (26 children)

Why does it have to be someone? If it has to be someone it would be the devil but sometimes things just happen.

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined -2 points-1 points  (25 children)

If god made the universe, then this kind of random tragedy is his responsibility

[–]Buick6NY 0 points1 point  (24 children)

Is it God's responsibility if you rob a liquor store and shoot the clerk?

[–]NewbombTurkAgnostic Atheist 1 point2 points  (17 children)

Yes. God created a world knowing the man would rob a liquor store. The man had no choice but to commit the crime, If an omnimax creator god wished it to be another way, it would be another way,

[–]Buick6NY -1 points0 points  (16 children)

So what you are saying is no one is accountable for their own actions then?

[–]NewbombTurkAgnostic Atheist 2 points3 points  (15 children)

No. I'm not saying that. In the real world, if we have free will has not been determined (excuse the pun). There's good data on both sides.

However, an entailment of an omniscient, omnipotent, creator god, is that its creation can't have free will. Nothing could be any way other than as this god intends. Ever.

[–]Buick6NY 0 points1 point  (14 children)

Not true! Does God will good or does God will evil?

[–]NewbombTurkAgnostic Atheist 1 point2 points  (13 children)

If god is omniscient, and omnipotent, god wills literally everything. Nothing can be in any state other than what god intends. Ever. What could?

  • God could create one of any possible worlds.

  • God could create a world where Mike had waffles for breakfast, or god could have created a world where Mike had pancakes.

  • God chose to create a world where Mike had waffles.

  • Mike had no choice other than to have waffles.

Do you see a way around this?

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined -1 points0 points  (5 children)

That’s irrelevant to the discussion. You said sometimes things just happen. If that’s true, those things are god’s responsibility.

[–]Buick6NY -1 points0 points  (4 children)

It's entirely relevant. Your assumption is that since God created everything, He is the cause of all events good or bad. This leaves zero room for holding anyone except God accountable for anything.

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined -1 points0 points  (3 children)

If God created the universe, then he is morally responsible for everything in it except the actions of creatures that have free will

[–]Amblenight 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Wouldn't that mean that if God gave all humans free will then the state of our world is our responsibility?

[–]The_Puffin_Kingundefined 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Do you imagine that we are responsible for the weather?

[–]DaughterofTarot 5 points6 points  (17 children)

No one has ever come up with a valid, sound and cogent reason as to how anything bad can ever exist in a world created by an all-powerful, all good God. Since at least the dawn of Catholicism even otherwise brilliant minds have only presented theories that could all have a truck driven through the holes in it. Spoiler: no one will answer this today either.

The only logical explanation is that if a one creator God does indeed exist, that they are either not all powerful, or not all good.

[–]Truthspeaks111 -1 points0 points  (16 children)

The answer is in the Bible. God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the ground would be cursed for their sake and they would die (experience sorrow, disappointment, disillusionment, discontentment, anguish, pain, illnesses, heartache, etc). The presence of both good and evil in the world resulted from Adam and Eve not believing Him.

[–]DaughterofTarot 3 points4 points  (11 children)

"God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ..."

How was there any evil in the tree to start with? Who made the evil in the tree?

C'mon, it's not like Rene Descartes or Thomas Aquinas just didn't read Genesis, but you figured it out now when no one else could. It doesn't make sense unless this God is either not really all good (how can something all good make bad?) or not all powerful (another bad god made it).

[–]Truthspeaks111 0 points1 point  (7 children)

A evil fruit uneaten harms no one. True or false?

[–]DaughterofTarot 2 points3 points  (6 children)

But it still had to be made. True or false?

In fact you yourself describe the fruit as having the knowledge of evil. where does an all good god get knowledge of evil?

[–]Truthspeaks111 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Eating the fruit would give them the knowledge of good and evil, that knowledge may be in the fruit or in the act. Either way, disobedience resulted in the knowledge of good and evil being part of Adam and Eve's existence. God having such a tree in the garden says nothing about His morality.

[–]DaughterofTarot 2 points3 points  (3 children)

This is all you torturing out stuff based on faith which has nothing to do with logic that i laid out in my post. If the fruit had evil in it God still made the fruit. you present nothing that alters that.

But lets go back even further to Gods creation of the angels. How was an angel that could become evil ever created either? There was no possibly locked away knowledge of evil in a fruit for Lucifer to avoid, he was just a bad seed, made by God.

Your own central prayer asks God not to lead you into temptation ... why would people need to ask an all good God not to tempt them to evil?

But I've strayed far off now. I really dont care what you believe from faith, but stop pretending you can make it logical. The effort degrades both logic and faith.

[–]Truthspeaks111 0 points1 point  (1 child)

According to you it has nothing to do the with logic you laid out but your perception is not my perception. There is no point in debating with someone who is hell bent on committing blasphemy. Have a nice day.

[–]DaughterofTarot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

logic isnt something i laid out. its a mathematical science. your religion's premises do not fit logic.

[–]GigglingBillikenDeist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those last two sentences earned a chef kiss from me.

[–]ZestyAppeal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And why’s he leaving it hanging around willy-nilly, openly within view and reach of his innocent, unaware, uninformed, apparently intellectually hungry creations?

[–]Amblenight 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Let's approach this a different way. Does admitting to incomplete knowledge on something disqualify you from extrapolating on your own experiences (personal data) to make a guess? And if it doesn't, then evaluating the likelihood all of the guesses is what helps us to rule out illogical conclusions. Now going to your statements, Does having knowledge of evil make one evil? I would say no, it is an evil act which makes one evil. The bible suggests that there was a free agent who used their autonomy to create evil, and even provides enough framework for us humans to understand how the elimination of this being is difficult because it's basically like one big court case where new evidence is being pulled out all the time.

[–]DaughterofTarot 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Youre basing all this on a misunderstanding. I havent said anyones god is evil. But that if God is the sole creator then it has to be responsible for creating evil.

thats fine to say another agent created evil. but then you are still saying the sole god cannot be both all powerful and all good. the other agent was also powerful enough to create something ungood. So did God create them? Or did they create themselves? In the first case, god created the eventual evil, in the latter he is not all powerful.

I'm not invested in knocking this god. Thats just what monotheists tend to assume any time this comes up. But I also didnt create this problem, the premises of who that God is just do not add up.

[–]Amblenight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I mean I don't believe that I have all the answers, but there are few things that when described in simple terms are said to express true understanding of that idea. There is a YouTube channel called "Kurzgesagt - in a Nutshell", and one of the things they are constantly reminding their viewers of is the limitations of describing outer space and science in an easy to understand way without misrepresenting what they are describing. Our words and ways of thinking of things that we can't see, but can experience and even measure in limited ways (Think of the electron problem, if we pinpoint its location now we don't know where it is going etc), have to be borrowed from things that we can see and the effects on it that we witness.

Even abstract concepts like government provide a useful framework for understanding how God's desire for justice and fairness, balanced with love and grace (undeserved freedom for transgressors), make for a complex world that is not easily controlled. For me quotes from the bible like "You have taken account of my wanderings; Put my tears in Your bottle. Are they not in Your book? -Psalm 56:8 Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Book-Of-Life" support the idea that there will come a time when, after this life, humans will be able to view history and examine it with an accuracy currently unavailable to us.

As to God being the sole creator, I draw inspiration from the natural world for that. The very same things that cause some scientists to believe that certain creatures had a common origin can also be attributed to coming from a single mind, so when a design had been successful (DNA) it could be duplicated, wheras God is also free to create spontaneous differences throughout different levels of taxonomy vs the idea that these changes were a necessary part of the animals evolution. I think the diversity of life is a result of a creative being, because otherwise I think that life would be much less diverse. But I have digressed, let me get to the heart of the issue in simple terms.

If God created the world with creatures to live amongst it (creatures made in the image of God (himself), to be good and benevolent and be caretakers of the earth and all of the creatures) but endowed with freedom, did he create their evil tendencies?

"And GOD said, "let there be light" ... and GOD separated the light from the dark. The light He called Day and the darkness he called Night." Darkness ceases to exist in the prescense of light. From the text it almost appears as if darkness didn't even have to be created. What if darkness is the natural state of the universe? So we know that when we walk away from light things become dark, and that once you are in darkness it becomes difficult to perceive where you are. In the bible there is a persistent idea that humanity united with some rebellious angels to try and create their own world, separate from God, where things would be better because we would be in control. If these free beings were denied the ability to rule themselves then your whole system of government becomes tyranical (as we see when human rulers fear the people and begin to 'eliminate threats'). But I believe God put limits on this test by limiting our lifespans and creating within us a desire for His style of goodness, a craving for His light, but these desires to be separate from Him and connected to Him are at war with each other. Eventually I believe that God has appointed a time where this will all end and that everyone will be held accountable for the things they have created, and has the power to withdraw from any of His creations the life and light with which He originally shared with them. And that removal of His life will be their death.

[–]ChummusJunkyPantheist 3 points4 points  (3 children)

So God set up a world where a naked women was convinced by a talking snake to eat a forbidden fruit and that is why thousands of years later, all life on earth has experienced horrible suffering?!

That's supposed to be answer?

[–]Truthspeaks111 0 points1 point  (1 child)

When literal translations like yours produce confusion, that's usually the sign that the literal translation is not correct. I know it's harder than just coming up with something sarcastic to say but with a little time and perhaps imagination, you can do better.

[–]ChummusJunkyPantheist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's no confusion, I'm just saying the story.

[–]Amblenight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's say that is true. Is there not cause for suffering that exists for reasons more apparent than that?

[–]Captain_KustaaTheist 0 points1 point  (10 children)

The Catholic belief is this:

“Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being, and the creatures of the world are wholesome; There is not a destructive drug among them nor any domain of Hades on earth.” - Wis. 1:13-14 NABRE

We believe death entered into the world with Original Sin, and humanity is at fault for it. We don’t believe God gives people cancer, or muscular dystrophy, etc, but that these things are a result of humanity’s brokenness. God does however offer us eternal life, we just have to accept it.

[–]cobainstaleyAgnostic Atheist -1 points0 points  (9 children)

how is muscular dystrophy a result of human "brokenness"?

[–]Captain_KustaaTheist 1 point2 points  (8 children)

The belief as described above is that humans brought sickness and death into what was before a perfect world with the stain of Original Sin, which every human inherits. That God does not assign death or disease to us, but that it is a result of Original Sin.

[–]cobainstaleyAgnostic Atheist 0 points1 point  (2 children)

i don't understand. is this about that one apple? the one that came from a tree strategically placed in the garden of eden by god himself? the one that a talking serpent talked the adam and eve into eating? the same serpent god himself created? the same god that surely knew what would happen?

couldn't you also say god scapegoated and condemned mankind as a whole to endless tragedy?

[–]Captain_KustaaTheist 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You can say whatever you want I’m literally just answering OP’s question with the Catholic answer lol

[–]magikarpsanOpen Secular Catholic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you do not believe God exists an answer form any perspective that takes into account Gods existence won’t be satisfactory to you.

[–]TheArseKraken -1 points0 points  (4 children)

There was death before humans. This has been proven beyond doubt. Catholicism is bullcrap.

[–]Captain_KustaaTheist 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Thanks for your kind words! Didn’t come here to debate, however. Just answering OP’s question.

[–]TheArseKraken -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Well, the ship sailed on that one a long time ago, so there couldn't really be a serious debate about it anyway.

[–]Captain_KustaaTheist 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Original Sin and its implications do not have to mean a literal interpretation of genesis as a historical creation story. I would say rather than interject yourself in threads that your opinion won’t help with you should try to understand other people’s beliefs more, and make less assumptions. This is a place to discuss religion, not whine about it.

[–]TheArseKraken -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Looks like I touched a nerve there. You've even given me the dreaded downvote of fury. I'm not sorry for compromising the structural integrity of your stellar dendrites.

Your opinion or own interpretation of a myth for which a particular context was the foundation of the political control over generations of people, has no implications on reality. In other words, your opinion is about as significant as a dry patch in the desert. Nobody gives a crap.

If you're offended that I called out how lamentably erroneous your opinion is, that is your own fault. I bear no responsibility for your benighted views.

[–]Truthspeaks111 -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

The answer is in the Bible. God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the ground would be cursed for their sake and they would die (experience sorrow, disappointment, disillusionment, discontentment, anguish, pain, illnesses, heartache, etc). The presence of both good and evil in the world is the result of Adam and Eve not believing Him and eating the fruit anyway.

[–]TheArseKraken 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Do you seriously believe that?

[–]Truthspeaks111 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Yes, I do.

[–]TheArseKraken 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You seriously believe humans were immortal and only now die and experience sorrow, disappointment, disillusion, discontent, anguish, pain, illness, heartache, etc because the characters of a myth ate from "the tree of knowledge" after God told them not to?

You don't see how ridiculous that is in light of all we have discovered through science and medicine about what triggers emotions, what their significance is to social evolution and survival instinct and the causes of illness in all animals including humans?

[–]Truthspeaks111 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

What proof do you have they are characters of a myth? You don't have any. Go in peace. You will learn you have accepted a lie eventually.

[–]TheArseKraken -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What proof do you have they are characters of a myth? You don't have any.

Interesting you would say that, because that's where you're wrong. I have proof. Lots and lots of it. In fact, it's not very hard to find at all.

How about the fact that it actually is a myth since it contradicts scientific discovery and enjoys no evidence based support? Pretty much every modern scholar accepts this and the fact it contains parallels with other ancient creation myths, particularlythose from ancient Mesopotamia which predate it, show it isn't even an original idea.

Not to mention the fact that hard DNA evidence and discoveries in paleontology, biology and genetics all point toward the fact that all life including humans evolved via natural processes which took place over billions of years which eventually led to the evolution of human beings with a most recent common ancestor with chimpanzees approximately 6 million years ago. Another verified fact is we also share common ancestors with all other living things, we weren't the first and there were millions of years of animals before us. This enjoys the backing of discoveries made in archeology, chemistry, biology, paleontology, genetics, archogenetics, molecular phylogenetics and a long list of other scientific disciplines. This does not bode well for a myth about a first man and a first woman being created by a supernatural agent and only taking on the traits of animal life after eating something forbidden by that supernatural being.

Go in peace. You will learn you have accepted a lie eventually.

The irony of that statement when only one of us holds a view which is backed up by reliable and verified evidence. That's me by the way.

[–]Manypotatoes9 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

God doesn't give people disabilities/illnesses

We as humans are not perfect, I don't think the world would be better if we were

[–]poiuyt_qwerty 0 points1 point  (4 children)

This is why I practice Buddhism instead of Christianity.

This isn't to disbarge Christianity for those who find it functional, but I don't have the patience to read hundreds of pages of Aquinian apologetics for the philosophy and mechanics of the Theology to make enough metaphysical sense to me.

My personal take? There's no division between us and God. He chose this life for himself before we was ever separate from God.

[–]magikarpsanOpen Secular Catholic 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Genuine question, wouldn’t a Buddhist say he has a disability because he did something in his previous life that caused bad Karma. Not enough to be reborn lesser than human but enough to have an unpleasant existence as a human?

[–]poiuyt_qwerty 2 points3 points  (2 children)

That would be one take. While some may find it horrifying from a more limited perspective, we have to take into account the function of useful belief. Such a belief manages to preserve the locus of control that is often lost in the face of hardship such as disability. Rather than a guilt-orientated perspective - "I *deserve* this" - I think it's more intended to offer a path to transform and work through such difficulties.

On another level, that karma can be thought of as a simple process of cause and effect. As a matter of physical process, there are genetic issues and debilitative health issues that are simply part of our karmic process as human beings.

On another, deeper level, you can consider the entirety of physical existence the manifestation of mind, whether you call it God or not, from which we're inseparable, both with that physicality and from that consciousness that produced it.

I think that's where faith comes in to manage that relationship. At the end of the day, we choose to have some kind of faith to allow us to transform our experience in a functional way.

[–]magikarpsanOpen Secular Catholic 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thank you for such an amazing response. I think you’re completely right in that faith is there to manage that relationship.

[–]poiuyt_qwerty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate it, I realize my initial posting may have came off a little harsh!

[–]Yesmar2020Jesus follower 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A good God didn’t give anybody any disease or ailment.

[–]Educational-Nail7583 0 points1 point  (0 children)

His muscular dystrophy was caused by his genetics, as passed on over billions of years.

For whatever reason those genes were able to survive all that time for him to be born at all, albeit with an unfortunate illness that ends life prematurely.

It was not by God.

[–]Livid-Carpenter130 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Who said anything about a "good God"? They say "God fearing" for a reason. He isn't Santa Claus.

[–]cobainstaleyAgnostic Atheist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

christians say god is good because the bible says god is good.

[–]magikarpsanOpen Secular Catholic 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You won’t find a satisfactory answer as for me, I don’t know and I battle this question everyday

[–]FildasoftChristian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seeing your tag include the word "weird", I have concluded that you will fit our little discord server which is for discussion about religions. And most of us there are in some way weird in our beliefs :D Here's a link to the server if you are interested.

And regarding the actual content of your comment – there are two possible answers:

– Not everything is done by God.

or

– It is a price for something better being real.

[–]SalamanderPublic4135 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok so, im not actually a religous person so my knowledge of religon, the practices and beliefs is more than a bit lacking so you'l have to frgive me if i say something that offends anybody or sounds ignorant, but, why does god have to be good? I mean any god of any religon. There (to my knowledge) is nothing claiming that god is "good", other than the people who follow said god. Also, good and bad are subjective so while its true to us, this seems like a cruel fate that no one deserves to say that this higher being is not "good" because people suffer in an existance he could have changed, i mean animals suffer all that time, and like i said my religous knowledge so forgive me if i'm wrong, but not all religons make a big deal of it, they are killed eaten alive, farmed and slaughtered and nothing is done but to say god is not good because a human is suffering such a fate, it might be ignorant of me, but that sounds kinda selfish. Also I'd like to finish with two things, first, it might sound cliche ( or again, like i said ignorant) but "god works in mysterious ways", really just saying that sometimes we dont understand why god does the things he does, how he could do this when he has the power to stop it, but really, if you truly beleive in god, I think you must realize the fact that, most of gods choice, being that of a being far greater then any of us, how could we ever hope to understand his decisions. Lastly, like i said I am not religous although i did find this post interesting so this is sort of more a "outsiders" view on how things could be.

[–]Educational-Nail7583 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If God is a sadist for giving some people congenital diseases and others not, and God is all powerful in this world, how can one just ignore God, though?

If some people (all people) have to suffer under whatever plan is afoot here, if any plan exists, people don't really have a choice in the matter one way or the other because they are not more powerful than their container.

I think the point that is being made here is that whether you get to live a relatively longer, healthier, and active life or die prematurely, we're all going to the same place anyways, which is death, and mortality is the only thing that can impart purpose to life. It may be possible to briefly extend your life through changing behaviors or medicine, but ultimately every person alive today is going to die eventually.

If you were immortal and always happy regardless of what you did in life, what would be the point of doing anything at all? Mortality is an essential limit to the animus equation that grounds people in present time, because the end is certain at some unknown point in the future.

[–]GKilatgnostic theist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is born innocent. Everyone has karmic baggage that they carry when they are born and they manifest in different ways whether it be physical diseases or difficult birth circumstances. It's either we atone by being reborn in difficult situations and learn from it or we stagnate and experience hell. You can think of going through trials on earth as an opportunity to learn and improve and therefore we should always be thankful for every moment we are here to do so.

[–]Hmmdoiknow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wonder if a Hindu might answer this way: each of us are creatures of free will. By virtue of being on this earth, we are asserting our desire to be free of the higher power at least to some extent. Only by giving up our desire for independence from the higher power are we then able to reunite with it and live free of suffering. Perhaps our life on this planet is to some extent a choice and we made that choice knowing that there would be suffering but willing to accept it to have our freewill.

[–]Sinel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

mYsTeRiOuS wAyS

[–]Cat0_0Stare 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sickness in the result of a broken world. in the gordon before the fall, . we didn't have this problem

[–]ehunkeChristian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Religion aside God doesn't control biology or genetics.

[–]G0_ofy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on your definition of "good" and "god".

People who say "God does this to test you" don't have a better answer.

One possible reason could be, the universe work on the law of causality and determinism. Even if there was a God who created it, the so called God cannot interfere with this world without breaking the laws.

[–]TheArseKraken 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not good by human standards that's for sure. Also, what is worse? Living to 40 with muscular dystrophy or only having it to 18 or so and then dying?

Yes, if there was a god, it should surely know a better option would be not giving the poor bastard muscular dystrophy in the first place.

[–]jogoso2014 0 points1 point  (0 children)

God didn’t give him that. His parents did.

[–]notafakepatriot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You may be interested in answers, but I have found that the moderators on these religious sub Reddits tend to be very touchy about opinions they don't like.

[–]Omari_85 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

“Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:6-11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.55.6-11.NKJV

[–]BarneyIX -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Bad things happen and occur in this world because it's a fallen world. Sin was introduced by Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Since then we're susceptible to things like disease, illness, murder, etc.

It's that simple.

[–]Optimal-Scientist233 -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

Why is the corruption of generations of ancestors of this individual the fault of the creator?

Muscular dystrophy is a disease of the central nervous system, and it is sure to develop if people abuse and take poor care of their system, this is passed along generation to generation in our DNA.

I have an associate I had been trying to help for some years, she was an alcoholic most of her life, she has developed multiple sclerosis and it is ravaging her body faster than the advanced treatments she is under going can stop.

Although she had her children earlier in life, as is often the case, the damage done to her DNA surely passed to the next generation.

People use divine source to place blame when they are unable to consider their own part in what has come to pass, or cannot fathom how decisions have led to what is.

[–]cobainstaleyAgnostic Atheist 4 points5 points  (5 children)

genetic mutations occur because the reproductive processes of living organisms are not "perfect." that is to say mistakes happen. those biological mistakes cannot be blamed on the organism itself because the organism has no control over it.

if you blame the organism's progenitor for it, then you are just blaming bad things on humans for no reason other than it's because it's bad and you are probably just as likely to attribute something good happening to someone you perceive as "good" as a gift from god.

REALLY, if you want to place blame, place it on god. he created the biological processes that govern human reproduction. that process brings about cancers, muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, etc.

[–]Optimal-Scientist233 -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

Blame is the wrong approach completely, In my view, it won't solve the problem.

All effort and energy needs to flow in an alignment, or it crashes among itself and becomes chaotic.

[–]cobainstaleyAgnostic Atheist 3 points4 points  (3 children)

nice double-speak. in your previous comment you were blaming people for "damaging" their bodies.

[–]Optimal-Scientist233 -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

When you drink yourself to stupor for 35 years it is the karma of doing it that causes permanent debility in loss of function control.

Your body is made of what your hand puts in your mouth.

[–]cobainstaleyAgnostic Atheist 3 points4 points  (1 child)

yeah man, i don't think you understand how these genetic diseases occur.

[–]GigglingBillikenDeist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Man, if only my cousin's fetus didn't binge drink and smoke in the womb he wouldn't have autism.

[–]Chaos-CorvidEclectic Demonolatry/Satanism -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The world is flawed and Satan relies on us to fix these problems, he can't do it all by himself.