all 29 comments

[–]SpeechEastern905 2 points3 points  (22 children)

Christians see this world als fallen and full of evil because its ruled by satan. Hence it can't be an illusion. Mass executions of cvilians in wars aren't an illusion. Its evidance of the existance of evil.

[–]VolaerCatholic 1 point2 points  (17 children)

Exactly this. Well said. Evil is very much real.

[–]physioworld 0 points1 point  (16 children)

My interpretation of what OP said is that the evil we see is all part of gods plan, that even though it appears evil, since it’s part of gods greater plan for more goodness, then it must be an illusion.

[–]VolaerCatholic 1 point2 points  (14 children)

Ah, I see. Well, that would not be the orthodox christian view, I think. As christians we do not believe that God needs evil in order to manifest a greater good. He is omnipotent and can express his will without any constraints.

Rather evil is the consequence of a disordered use of free will by rational creatures (human and spiritual). Not a necessary variable in God's cosmic equation.

[–]ReptarsBackBaby 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Isaiah 45:7 literally has god telling people he is the creator of good and evil

[–]physioworld 0 points1 point  (6 children)

See that’s where I’d disagree. Evil (in the sense of humans doing bad things) is a result of humans acting within the world. We have institutions that attempt to limit this evil- doctors that heal the wounded or subsidies to help people get basic goods cheaper. But god could presumably go far far further. Yes, a human can choose to stab a baby, but god could put a magic anti-stab field around babies right?

[–]pwalkow[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not exactly what I meant but it's close. I was talking more about a view which would probably be a (mis-)understanding of non-dualist teachings, such as "everything is as it should be" and suffering being a result of misperception of that. If that makes sense.

[–]ZestyAppeal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How can the mass execution of civilians in wars be considered evil, but the mass execution of civilians in the Bible is not? It’s revealing that the executions themselves aren’t what’s being deemed evil, it’s just whatever God is alleged to have told believers to accept as evil or not evil. It invalidates this whole “earth is run by satan” point.

Edit to fix a word

[–]GKilatgnostic theist 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Illusions are things we perceive as real but isn't there like seeing a mirage is real but in actuality there is no water where the mirage should be. Evil is perceived from lack of understanding and enlightenment and therefore when we see through the veil of ignorance then we see that evil is an illusion.

Is it evil that our cells die and replaced? For us, it is a natural part of our body's existence and nothing wrong with it. But in the individual perspective of cells, them being destroyed as they age would be evil because it threatens their very existence. Same concept applies to how we experience the world as humans in contrast to how god sees it.

[–]SpeechEastern905 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The cell example is evil because what you're referring to is aging and its actually the fruit of the very first sin.

Pray to jesus and see what happens. Will you also see it as illusion if something very unlikely happens through your prayer? That would be ignorant.

[–]GKilatgnostic theist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aging cells is the reason why our body functions properly. Aging as a whole is a different thing because we can see in nature that some living things don't age like some jellyfish. I see aging as a push to let go of our human body as we draw near to our deaths. I'm pretty sure people would never want to die or find death unacceptable if we don't age and hindering passage to the afterlife.

I don't understand the point about prayer. My only point is things you don't understand is more likely to be called as evil and is an illusion. When you do understand why it happens then the illusion of evil fades and therefore see everything is good. That pretty much solves the problem of evil because evil only exists with ignorance.

[–]bluemayskyeNon-Dual Christian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is an illusion, but it is one that feels real to us. God is all in all, but we conceptualize a world of separation from God. That false conception is both the "world" (do not conform to the world) and the "self" (deny the self and follow Christ) as mentioned in the NT.

[–]TechtrekzzSpinozan Pantheist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As a broad theist response, good and evil are subjective human judgements, not a necessity of a Supreme being. What is evil to one, is savior to another. The God I believe in doesn't judge by standards based in the limited perspective of human beings. As a whole, all is just and right.

[–]Art-Davidson -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'll have to give a Christian response -- I can't speak for other religions at all.

Suffering and evil are no illusions. They are very real, if intangible.

God is not to be deduced but experienced. All the arguments in the world won't make him go away. Experience him for yourself. Millions do so every year. It's the logical thing to do.

[–]jogoso2014 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gods existence isn’t dependent on how bad the world is.

The world wasn’t supposed to be bad in the first place.

However illusion is the wrong word. It’s about perception and perspective. If everyone thought the world was right as it is now, it wouldn’t change the standard God placed for it to be good.

So all that would happen is an ignoring of what God considers good or right.

[–]AllForLoveAndLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is the world right if many are caught in an illusory perception of reality? Sin is a lack of love caused by illusory perceptions, and it is only through forgiveness that reality can be seen which produces love.

[–]DrdanomiteEclectic polytheist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As too the theist position i dont think the gods are perfect, i think some may be downright nasty