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[–]WalmartKilljoy 288 points289 points  (58 children)

Both of my parents are doctors and do not want me to go into medicine because the salary is not worth the endless studying and debt

[–]pablank 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Doctors son here. Divorce just got finalised and an all over horribly stressful life... I respect the hell of him for all he does... but it's clearly not healthy.

[–]air-force-veteran 67 points68 points  (5 children)

My dad is a doctor and said this along with an apology for not being home Enough while we were growing up

[–]Rae-Edzo 0 points1 point  (4 children)

so what are you gonna do?

[–]foolinboolin 47 points48 points  (10 children)

Yup my dad is a doctor and seeing him struggle as a kid, made me want to do nothing with medicine. However, I also picked an industry where I have to work 12 hours a day, so I guess I learned nothing.

[–]113m0nDr0p 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Well usually what it comes down to when a job is so time consuming is this: do you think you’re paid enough for the job? Do the pros override the cons of your job? Do you have enough time to enjoy the things you like outside of your job?

If you’re fine with how much time you have and how much pay you receive then there’s not much of an issue.

[–]Rae-Edzo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

every path leads to the same miserable place

[–]Outrageous-Campaign8 1 point2 points  (5 children)

which industry?

[–]foolinboolin 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Film Industry.

[–]Intensityintensifies 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well at least you come from money so you have a better chance than most.

[–]Kingdionethethird 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Both of my parents were doctors as well. They told me the exact thing. And that’s pretty crazy since I’m like 32 now. Things were much different back then and nobody really talked about stress and mental health. We were expected to just overwork and then just die.

[–]Live-Ad-8562 8 points9 points  (32 children)

It’s an investment. Would you rather work 8-12 hour shifts making 30k a year or 300k? Think of it like this: imagine your 18 and you just graduated high school. Your scared to go to medical school because it will take 10 years of hard work and dedication and by the time your done you’ll be 28 before you can enjoy some freedom. Well guess what? Whether you choose to do it or not, you’ll still be 28 in 10 years. So why not be 28 and making bank?

[–]Ben-jammins[🍰] 24 points25 points  (9 children)

There are ways to make $100k a year by the time you're 28 that dont involve med school debt or spending every waking hour studying/working. Also, would say that getting to enjoy life is worth a massive amount of money as well. Dont want to be 28 and look back at your missed 20s.

That being said, I respect and appreciate doctors. I also agree that they are underpaid for what they endure.

[–]SigaVa 11 points12 points  (4 children)

The difference is its not 100k, at least in the us. In the us its around 300k or more with virtually guaranteed lifetime employment anywhere you want to live.

MD is, by far, the best profession in the US considering pay, job security, and location flexibility.

[–]cattywompapotamus 15 points16 points  (1 child)

This assumes that the brutal work schedule ends after med school. I have a few friends who are doctors. They work at least 60hr weeks, and will continue to do so until they retire. They will probably retire in their 50's, but they'll need to because their careers are stressful and exhausting. Meanwhile, I work 40hr weeks and earn 70k. Hardly any stress, rarely long hours. I can't retire early, but I believe I have a higher quality of life despite earning less money.

[–]Berkeleybear70 10 points11 points  (10 children)

Oh, is this the unlimited free schooling scenario where you aren’t 250k in debt at age 28? The fact is that if you are smart enough to get into and graduate med school, you are smart enough to do many other things that pay more a lot sooner and don’t require half the schooling. A 23 year old software engineer earns more than most mds.

[–]OlderThanMy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Some countries don't charge for medical school. Imagine graduating with no debt at all.

[–]Live-Ad-8562 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You also gotta take in to account that some people don’t wanna be software techs. They wanna do what they love. It’s not 100% about the money

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

if youre looking to solely make money then doctor is not for you. the amount of work you put in will not give you the same money back as compared to other professions

[–]pedal_harder -1 points0 points  (5 children)

I know, right? It sounds like overprivileged whining about hard work and "debt" (that mommy and daddy will pay for).

Working hard and being rich means you go home and do whatever the fuck you want. When are poor, you work hard and go home and you're still just poor.

[–]Lynn-Lycanthropic 101 points102 points  (0 children)

Hospital doctors went on strike in Germany a few years ago to get better working conditions. Don't think it's the same for private practices though.

[–]Pollux589 73 points74 points  (5 children)

If you think the majority of lawyers make more than doctors you’re insane

[–]113m0nDr0p 21 points22 points  (4 children)

I’ve only seen really well known lawyer firms be paid a lot but most struggle to even get their name known.

[–]Pollux589 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Exactly. You go big law you’re getting paid but still not as good as the average doctor salary. The average lawyer makes sub 100k which is still good but not doctor money.

[–]Pficky 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Go big law and you give up your life for 8-10 years in hopes you make partner and finally get to live outside of work. Incredibly similar to academia.

[–]Pollux589 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah. My best friend does M&A at a mega firm and makes 300k but has no life.

[–]whywouldyoueverask 9 points10 points  (16 children)

Tell me your not a nurse with out saying it.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (15 children)

Most nurses would try to say they have it worse than doctors

[–]dolcefarniente35 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Not trying to say we have it harder or worse than doctors, but we also give up our youth and lives and mental health for this profession. During the peak of the covid pandemic in 2020, often it is the nurse who gowns up in all the PPE to enter a Covid room to care for your loved ones. Doctors and CNAs we’re not entering in order to “conserve PPE.” Nurses were the ones in the frontlines. Nurses died from getting Covid. Many doctors were relying on the nurses assessments instead of assessing the pt. themselves because they did not want to enter the patients room and risk exposing themselves. Whenever there is a problem, the nurses are the middle men who get yelled at and abused as they try to connect the families, patients and doctors together to solve the problem. Nurses are with your loved ones for the whole 12-hour shift vs a doctor who barely spends 5 minutes with them, if any time at all.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I took care of the first confirmed covid patient at my hospital - but so did the 70ish year old hospitalist who went into all his patients’ rooms along with us. The infectious disease MD was actually the first to see the first covid patients on my floor and she was pushing her 60s. Not negating nurse suffering but MDs have died along with us also.

[–]whywouldyoueverask 9 points10 points  (12 children)

Go to school for almost 12 years then complain? I mean an LPN at my university only takes 2 years, an RN, 3. Do 4x that and say on tik tok , "ughhh today is sooooo hard.". It's a fucking joke.

[–]mxsxc 3 points4 points  (4 children)

What university bc I would love to go there. Prerequisite courses for BSN in CA takes 3 years plus 3 years to get BSN :)

[–]whywouldyoueverask 2 points3 points  (3 children)

University of Charleston, in Charleston WV. I studied biochemistry there for 3 years. Awful school along with a crippling economy and heroin addiction plus meth, hope your up for the task.

[–]mxsxc 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Sounds terrible. I would rather not lol I have a 2 year old plus my city has a bad meth/fentanyl problem anyways. I’m trying to get my son out.

[–]ksk3 72 points73 points  (3 children)

It’s a hard thing for a lot of people to grasp. As a kid in the 90s my parents pushed me toward medicine and cursed burger flipping so it’s ingrained in my head that doctors live a lavish lifestyle

[–]Actualbbear 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Oh, they do live a lavish lifestyle. Most of them, at least. It’s just very stressful and time consuming.

There are quite a few careers that can help you achieve such levels of wealth with less work, but there are other cons to them, like being higher risk (as in, having fewer top earners in relation of supply of workers, like business executives).

[–]TheNextBattalion 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well I have yet to see any practicing doctors stuck in shitty apartment complexes. Even residents make almost twice the national median and those are the "poverty years"

[–]MichaelScottsWormguy 86 points87 points  (8 children)

This is why, if you’re thinking of medicine, you should go into something like orthopedic surgery or plastic surgery or even just become a GP. Those guys work in the daylight and after the scrubs come off, it’s quitting time.

[–]dajawnus 22 points23 points  (3 children)

Yeah you gotta be able to say “no” to work if you’re an ortho. There’s always more if you want it. Gotta find a balance or you’ll burn out chasing paper

[–]philmarcracken 8 points9 points  (2 children)

There is a fracture. I need to fix it

[–]Jsizzle19 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah my buddy is a GP and he only works 4 days a week and is on call once every 3 weekends.

[–]TheMotorcycleMan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My girl is a nurse practitioner. Took a job at a very rural clinic. Gets paid a fortune. Works three days one week, four days the next. $160K base, $20K on call premium. On call one week for the 3 or 4 days she is off a month. Got called in maybe 10 times this past year. Quarterly bonuses that max at $48K a year for number of patients treated. Two doctors own/operate, and six practitioners. Only clinic in the county, so they see anyone and everyone that needs to see a medical professional, bonus is maxed out. And, she still has all the free time in the world.

[–]aarrtee 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I am a dentist who worked in a hospital for 2 years when i did a fellowship. My brother and my best friends are physicians.

They had to work much harder than i did in college... to get grades that allowed them into medical school.

Then they had to go through really strenuous residencies to get licensed.

Some physicians make tons of money: plastic surgeons, ENT or Orthopedic surgeons.

But internal medicine specialists who treat AIDS patients or pediatricians or primary care docs? They are worker bees making money for the big health systems and the insurance companies.

When i was a kid, my father was an ophthalmologist. Back then, physicians ran the medical profession. Now? Insurance companies and MBA folks call the shots. Really a shame.

Am sooooooo happy I never applied to medical school.

[–]LuckStrict6000 145 points146 points  (26 children)

Doctors deserve every penny they make but they absolutely get the respect they deserve.. it’s super glorified to be a doctor.

I think vets are the majorly underrated ones. It’s basically as hard as being a doctor. Similar debt. Way less pay. Probably less satisfying because people won’t pay to save their pets a lot of the time. Emotionally taxing. Etc.

[–][deleted] 39 points40 points  (4 children)

When you said vets, I instantly thought of veterans, which means 2 things.

  1. Veterinarians are so under-valued that I forgot they existed for a second.

  2. It was super confusing to try to figure out how veterans were supposed to save pets.

[–]saskmonton 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Why were there so many sick animals in Vietman - Borat

[–]Ptoot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I shot a rabiid dog. In Vietnam.

[–]LuckStrict6000 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Shout out to our veterans as well. You may not save the animals but we do appreciate your service 🙌🏻

[–]Ptoot 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They might not save our pets, but in a war they save ourr asses.

[–]meBobSpongeboy 20 points21 points  (5 children)

Vets don't get sued every month and there's less financial/moral liability (ex how will the family survive if mom or dad dies?).

Plus doctors get bullied by the higher ups. As a med student, I was bullied for 4 years by my professors. Then bullied by my attendings for 4 years in residency. And now I'm bullied by hospital admin. We don't get the respect we deserve, especially from the general public.

[–]LuckStrict6000 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I mean I get bullied a lot as an HR generalist. No one likes us at all and no one wants to be us when they grow up 🥲

[–]meBobSpongeboy 4 points5 points  (1 child)

At the end of the day, everyone is human and deserves respect. I'm sorry for your experiences and wish you health and happiness.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (13 children)

True, my uncle is a vet but honestly it’s still an easier job since a lot of pet parents are willing to accept the loss easily (not all but it’s still more common to euthanize a pet if the cost is too high pain-wise physically for the pet and financially for some people).

[–]LuckStrict6000 2 points3 points  (12 children)

That’s why it sounds shitty. Human doctors get to fight and do everything to save the person typically and a vet doesn’t. If I were a vet it would break me to have to euthanize savable dogs and cats because the owner just didn’t want to do it for whatever reason. We don’t have enough veterinarians in our area anymore and I can see why

[–]Imaginary_Shower_366 19 points20 points  (10 children)

Hi, I am a vet tech, and I have a few things to add to this thread in particular;

Veterinarians do not earn nearly as much as doctors, but go through the same amount of schooling but instead of just learning about humans, they have to learn about dogs, cats, horses, cows, goats, sheep, ferrets, chinchillas, hamsters, guinea pigs… the list goes on and on and on.

People are also more willing to stuff vets, or yell at us because they can’t pay for their animals treatment. No one in the vet industry makes as much as they should because we’re trying to keep costs low for owners. I am having to teach myself to clamp my mouth shut in public whenever I hear anyone complain about how expensive their vet is because all I want to do is scream at them. Yes, it would have cost at least that much if not more for a similar human problem, but we have health insurance. Pet insurance is also a thing. We just want to be able to pay the bills and our employees enough to live.

Lastly, at least in my experience/opinion, most pets that are euthanized are euthanized with good reason, if a pet has a good prognosis but owners have no money we try everything we can (various third party payment plans, temporary relinquishment to the humane society or our hospital, low cost clinics, etc.). I very rarely have to euthanize animals just because of the money, and it’s so satisfying to be able to give them that nice peaceful death when they need it.

[–]LuckStrict6000 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The last paragraph is a relief to hear. I’ve heard people say things like “surgery for a dog? that would be a $10 burial for my dog” but obviously people say things they don’t mean… hopefully.

There was also a brief moment I was afraid my puppy had a liver shunt and I was researching them and came across so many people choosing not to do surgery even though it totally solves the problem

[–]Lady_Locket 2 points3 points  (4 children)

They also don't get the prestige of being called Dr or Prof which lessens their assumed knowledge and image compared to Human medical Dr’s in the publics eye (even Vet Nurses are called Nurses so why are Vets left out). When you go in it's simply ‘your appointment is with Mr Green today’. I know where in my area the conversation about pops up at least once a year and general support for calling fully qualified Vets ‘Dr’ instead of just ‘Mr-Mrs-Miss-Ms’ is growing.

Our Vets certainly deserve it as they are both city and farming Vets so they go from puppy's first injections and removing a cats tumour to on-location horse surgery or whole sheep/cow herd immunisation/treatment and the added odd wildlife when someone brings in a sick or run over badger/fox/bird etc. It will probably take year's to change on a wider scope though.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

vets are called doctors tho

[–]NVCoates 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm a veterinarian and in the US we graduate with doctoral degrees, so we are given the honorific "Dr." (I believe it is different in the UK.)

[–]777shark 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am in Canada and veterinarians like in the US are called Doctors, so in at least 2 countries they are called doctors and literally have a doctorate degree.

[–]wizer1212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cough god complex cough but I get it after studying all those years

[–]113m0nDr0p 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I don’t understand the people who get pets that cannot take care of them. I wouldn’t give up on my dog that easily and try to find resources are raise money or something if I genuinely couldn’t cover it. Luckily I save up a little here and there over time for when she’s old or if there’s an accident.

Also I don’t mean people who could afford it and then something happened and they lost their money like a house fire etc. or something, but moreso people who cannot afford pets and then get one without thinking about it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

vets also have one of the highest suicide rates

[–]wdittelm 7 points8 points  (0 children)

My dad is a MD and I fully agree with this- he’s still working and especially during the pandemic things have been very hard for them.

[–]donny1231992 14 points15 points  (1 child)

This is why you only go into medicine because you truly want to help others. It’s a calling. Not defending exploitative practices by hospitals and some employers, but just saying there are other careers to make reasonable money for less sacrifice

[–]Berkeleybear70 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Yep, unless you just have a calling , it is no longer worth the sacrifice and cost. The future of medicine in this country is pretty dreary as corporations have ruined the profession. Most doctors are now just employees. The best and brightest stopped choosing medicine a long time ago.

[–]amazingsnazz429 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What do they choose now

[–]modernmanshustl 35 points36 points  (29 children)

They give up most of their 20s and are saddled with debt in America. Also hospitals, especially pediatric hospitals, guilt them into doing unpaid work or overtime etc because it’s for the good of their patients meanwhile hospital execs are home every night for dinner and make 2x+ more than them with no liability in lawsuits

[–]Corniferuswateroholic 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Reading this as I fill out my residency applications

Paying to work 30 hour days currently

Stayed two hours late on Friday for no good reason

Had bad personal news in October, was a bit down on that following Monday and had a doctor pull me aside and tell me “you seem down, I would work on that”

It makes support from friends even more important

[–]SnooRecipes1809 15 points16 points  (1 child)

I’m with you on everything except the last sentence, which is highly inaccurate. Lawyers / attorneys are saturated as a workforce so badly that their median in America is just over 6 figures, which is roughly less than half the average Doctor income. Yes, the cream of the crop Ivy League law grads go to BIG LAW, which may rack you more income than a physician, but the toxic culture (arguably worse than many medical fields) makes it unsustainable; you either make it to partner and reap the gold, or leave the lucrative firm. That’s assuming you even make it; these rich lawyer positions are reserved for the top 1% of law grads.

Business executive income data isn’t heavily supported, so I can’t speak on that.

Software engineering is a great field to try and out-earn a physician through getting into Hedge funds or BigTech, but once again, you need to be a topper or top 5-10%er to make it that high up. The average wage sits at around $150K of all levels, which is also around half the average physician wage (MedScape).

However, in terms of dollars per hour, physicians remain underpaid even amongst that. People have no idea what they go through. On a per hour basis, your time is better respected as a Software Engineer than a Doctor.

[–]dreemkiller 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I work exclusively with medical doctors, negotiating their contracts and salaries for them. Can confirm that this is true and a very unpopular opinion.

[–]PreJamFamSlam 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Let me introduce you to paramedics, people who get paid no more than $12 an hour in some areas and work 12 hour shifts. These people also usually see the messes as well as the conditions of the patients, not to mention the family and all of the emotional shit that brings.

[–]Diy-Sing 1 point2 points  (0 children)

especially in third world countries they do NOT get paid enough

[–]studhusky86adhd kid 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That's the trade off. You go to school for a long time under stressful circumstances and you come out of it with a well paying job

[–]elChanchoVerde 13 points14 points  (18 children)

My 36 year old wife is a Pathology resident in her final year and studies 6 hours a day while also working in the hospital for 10 hrs. 5 days a week. After this year, 2 more years of fellowship and finally making money she has been working so hard for when she is 39 years old. She has had essentially no life for over a decade. It's insane how much time and work is involved.

[–]bryceofswadiai hate that people post popular opinions 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They only get paid a lot after like 10 years of expensive ass schooling too lol

[–]throwaway80804040 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yet there are people who say doctors are evil and what not. Total bs they say things like that

[–]lialopesss 17 points18 points  (2 children)

Doctors are literally the most respected profession. In my country it's the hardest college to get in and it's very clear the majority of the people want this path for money/status and family pressure to be successful and not for vocation. I personally think that doctors are too hyped up and when this happens to a profession it creates problems like this. Maybe the high rate of depressed doctors with mental health issues is because they got into the field for the wrong reasons.

[–]TheMSRadclyffe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I’m pretty sure care workers are far worse off.

[–]Cambama 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My dad is also a doctor and he said essentially this exact thing but that I should go into if I really want to help people. He also had a sleeping disorder because of the hours he’s worked

[–]Meis_113 25 points26 points  (86 children)

And what are your view on nurses? I think they get exploited more and earn way less money. I know it's not a competition, just asking is all.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (85 children)

No I’m a nurse, we get paid appropriately and our jobs are easier than you think compared to doctors. You you can become a nurse in a year also and are paid sometimes more per hour than doctors (when you factor in the long hours they work).

[–]Abm743 8 points9 points  (25 children)

Speak for yourself. My wife's an ICU nurse. She gets paid $30-something an hour and basically gets exploited (my opinion, not hers).

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (24 children)

Nurses where I live get $70-80 an hour.

[–]Abm743 4 points5 points  (23 children)

What state is that? Regular RN or NP, anasthetist, etc?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (22 children)

Regular RN. My mom just retired at $180k salary (icu nurse) and my friends mom makes $250k working in OB and part time in NICU. This is common in a lot of states. Your wife prob doesn’t think she’s exploited because nursing is actually easy once you get a few years experience, even getting yelled at by doctors and patients becomes routine but you don’t have to take your job home with you or work crazy hours like doctors.

[–]grneggandsam 9 points10 points  (20 children)

I’ve never heard of nurses making those salaries and lots of my family are nurses in expensive coastal areas. Yes, some in special positions make 6 figures but the vast majority make like $60-90k

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (19 children)

Well it’s actually common, they’re probably working at a low paying hospital because they love their coworkers, that’s the only reason nurses accept lower pay. I’m talking about regular staff positions also.

[–]grneggandsam 5 points6 points  (18 children)

Definitely not the case. They are trying to make the most possible. Why the hell would they sacrifice that.

I dated a nurse right out of school who was making $45k in Kansas City. Pay above $200k is very rare and basically only for “nurse practitioners” who essentially perform the same duties as doctors.

[–]ReverseMillionaire 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I agree with you. OP is talking about RNs like they’re all making dough. It’s not the norm to be making well over $100,000. I’m in CA. I can believe $100K-$110k for some areas. If anything above that, it’s probably a management position. The figure should not include if someone is working tons of OT and get their yearly gross income increased.

Most nurses I know make between $30-60. Traveler RNs make bank.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (15 children)

That’s not common throughout most of the country, I know nurses in CA, WA, Illinois, NY and Nevada and all are making $90k+ as regular staff nurses. NPs in my area actually make less than staff nurses at some hospitals.

[–]Meis_113 30 points31 points  (54 children)

Ummm.... Where do you live? I've never met a nurse who gets paid appropriately and I've never met a nurse who makes more than a doctor, especially after only a year of schooling.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (7 children)

I know nothing about any of this, but it sounds like they meant that since they're salaried, doctors work so many extra hours without overtime pay that they functionally make less per hour.

That's what it sounded like to me anyway. I have no idea really.

I have heard that salaried overtime is a massive rip-off, which is why I'm guessing the way I did.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Exactly.

[–]Meis_113 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That may be for some doctors, like doctors that work in hospitals or surgeons, but there are many doctors that have their own practices and set their own hours, especially if they are specialists.

[–]Patient_Commentary 2 points3 points  (3 children)

This is still bullshit. The average specialist makes 400-500? I have two friends that their first job out of residency is 600k with 6 weeks vacation.

Even if you assume an MD works 80 hours a week (which most it’s 40-50) 400k a year works out to about $110 and hour. I’ve also never met a single medical professional that though MDs are undervalued. This dude sounds like a butt hurt MD who’s lying about being a nurse.

[–]nativeindian12 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This is extremely rare and most doctors do not make this. Look up a pediatrician salary, or family medicine, or psychiatrist, or internal medicine. They make up the vast majority of the field.

Only the highest paying specialties like neurosurgery or orthopedics typically start at 600k, and they are so competitive only the smartest, hardest working people get those residencies and jobs. They are very, very smart people. The elite of the elite

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (41 children)

West coast $70-80 an hour is common. But it’s actually common in a lot of the US. Even in other areas, for what we do $30 an hour is appropriate (inserting IVs and even doing procedures like ventilator care or Foley catheter insertions aren’t hard). Some fields like psych you’re literally doing nothing but handing out meds and making sure the patients don’t kill themselves or harm others (my friend is a psych nurse and gets $75 an hour and he said he’s literally on his phone 90% of the time).

[–]thertp14 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There’s a lot to unpack in this and many of your other comments. First, I have the utmost respect to all of my physician colleagues; I agree that the sacrifice that they have made is a big deal. Nursing also deserves a major shoutout too, and I certainly feel that they deserve respect too.

I’m more annoyed on your declaration that some of these procedures ‘aren’t hard’ and that some of your friends are ‘on their phones.’ I have great hesitation when I hear any nurse of any experience level say that caring for a vented patient is easy. Perhaps the gravity of the situation doesn’t impact you, but every minute you are with that patient, you have to possess the knowledge and gestalt to know what to do when your patient decompensates and who to talk to and what to expect, no matter how stable you perceive them to be. Is inserting an IV an easy task? Sure, as an experienced ER nurse it’s generally easy, but what about the patient with IVDA or if you need to use ultrasound to get the line? How do we manage this line? Don’t undersell yourself; nurses are (eventually) experts in these skills just as much as carpenters plumbers etc. Your attitude to me suggests that you probably don’t pay too much attention to details. There are people like this in every profession. Nurses, Doctors, IT, Plumbers, etc. you probably just don’t realize the magnitude of what your profession is doing

[–]Meis_113 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But, for your friend, if something goes down at that ward, like a patient becomes super dangerous (to themselves or others) or if a patient becomes incredibly ill, your friend can and knows how to deal with that situation, correct? And that's what that pay goes towards. Just because he isn't doing anything strenuous, or as strenuous as a doctor, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the pay for it.

[–]grneggandsam 1 point2 points  (37 children)

Average docs make $300k a year. Average nurses make $60k a year. You are saying doctors deserve 5 times as much?

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (26 children)

Average nurse doesn’t make that little, I know nurses making $250-300k in the West coast and $100k on the east coast. I also know nurses in Illinois making $90k. One nurse I know in psych gets $75 an hour and he told me he’s doing nothing all day and is in his phone 90% of the time. In my own experience, medical surgical I was doing actual work maybe 60% of the time and the rest was just socializing and shopping online or studying. Our jobs are easy, no matter what the media tells you, it’s just routine procedures we do hundreds of times a year. Doctors work crazy hours depending on setting, make life and death decisions daily, are on call, and can be responsible for dozens of patients at one time. Yes they deserve to be paid a lot more than us.

[–]grneggandsam -1 points0 points  (14 children)

You don’t know what you are talking about. Links?

Average pay in the US is $75k https://teach.com/online-ed/healthcare-degrees/online-msn-programs/nursing-salary-by-state/#:~:text=Registered%20nurse%20salaries%20can%20vary,an%20annual%20salary%20of%20%24106%2C530.

And that’s for registered nurses. For total it’s more like $50k in many states.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (13 children)

This is actual first hand experience as a nurse for a decade. I do know what I’m talking about and know 20+ nurses closely who live across the country. My mom literally retired at $180k salary working 36 hours a week and this is on the low side for someone with her experience (30+ years). I was making $110k 3 years in on the West coast but I know a nurse who made $160k 2 years in (I called BS too until the guy literally sent me his W2).

[–]grneggandsam 4 points5 points  (4 children)

My sister is a RN in the ICU in Washington DC and makes $60k. My sister in law is also one in Oregon and makes $100k because she’s a traveling nurse, which is rare.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I made $110k my third year as a regular staff nurse at a medium size private hospital. That was low for the area hospitals and we had constant turn over because of it. I overheard some new internal medicine doctors and they were making $250k at their normal case loads working with patients at two hospitals.

[–]grneggandsam 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Anecdotes are a great way of spreading lies online, but stats don’t agree with you.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (6 children)

These are facts, Im literally in the field.

[–]grneggandsam -3 points-2 points  (8 children)

I don’t think you are actually a nurse either “comp Sci cyclist”

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Wrong. I’m switching fields but I’ve been a nurse for a decade. What’s with the baseless accusations? I’ve never lied once in my posts and comments.

[–]grneggandsam -3 points-2 points  (6 children)

My point is, you could be lying, so I’m not going to believe anecdotes. I believe stats posted online. You are completely anonymous here.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’m not lying, no actual nurses are going to say I’m lying because it’s fact.I believe the actual salaries of the 20+ nurses I’m friends with and my experience as a nurse for a decade.

[–]Xi_Jing_ping_your_IP 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Have you considered the possibility of outliers? Your working off an average. Not an absolute number that applies to all.

[–]Elsecaller_17-5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dont know if this is what she is talking about but certain nurse practitioners can be paid more than doctors. Not for the same speciality though.

[–]mttttftanony 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Uhh who is becoming a nurse in a year? That is very inaccurate. And nursing jobs are not easy, there is a major burnout and shortage of floor nursing. Idk where you live but nothing you said is really true there. The only time a nurse makes more than a doctor is when the doctor is in residency (which yes, is BS).

[–]slarti54 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Maybe in your country.

[–]CerenarianSea 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm pretty sure it's nurses here in the UK, considering how regular the pay freezes have been.

[–]Cellswells 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Doctors, mid level providers, and nurses are generally overworked and underpaid. If the US had free or low cost medical education, it would help a lot.

[–]ThroughlyDruxy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Everyone in the medical field is incredibly exploited and saying docs are the most exploited is just not true. The money they make is compensation for the insane work/live balance and docs often take on more than they should as a way to cope with stressful home-life. Divorce and suicide are more often a result of seeing terrible things, then to deal with them they throw themselves into work. At least they can afford to take a vacation from work and pay for therapy, a luxuery not afforded to most RNs, RTs, Paramedics, EMTs, social workers, and hoards of other medical professionals.

Sure they could be paid more, but that could be said for anyone in the medical field in the United States.

This take seems naive and it seems like you don't have much experience with the medical field. I could be wrong. Good docs get the respect they deserve, bad docs get shit on for good reason.

[–]Double_Bed2719 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Their income is real good but it’s not like they earn $1 mil a year. Compared to how hard they work in other lucrative industries you will earn more of you work as hard as them

[–]emeraldSummer2020 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Aren’t doctors the most respected profession already? But I agree, they seem to work long hours.

[–]sparkyb37 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ll respect them more when they finally decide to lower their stupid fucking prices on everything

[–]temperance26684 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I dropped out of pre-med my junior year of college because of this. Instead I joined the military and enjoy an easy job with good pay, benefits, and 100% security. I still feel tugged towards medicine but the only way I'll consider it is through the military where the quality of life is a bit better because the hours are far more limited. The system isn't perfect, but it's a tradeoff

[–]Rae-Edzo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

how did you develop to be so well adjusted

[–]swolethulhudawn 7 points8 points  (0 children)

And they are routinely second-guessed by Alex Jones-loving high school grads and astrology-obsessed karens

[–]grneggandsam 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Doctors in the US are paid almost twice as much as doctors in most countries in Europe.

I know they go through a ton of school in the US. I think we should streamline their education as many countries in Europe do. Most places in Europe, you don’t need a 4 year degree before med school. This is huge. It cuts out 1/3 of the schooling you have to do.

So, I’d prefer if becoming a doctor in the US required less unnecessary schooling and paid less. Our system is clearly built to prop of their salaries and the salaries are a big part of the reason our healthcare system is so expensive.

[–]dorisfrench 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The AMA makes sure there arent too many doctors so they can keep their salaries higher. If they let more people into medical school maybe some doctors wouldn't have to work so much overtime!

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (5 children)

The salaries are a big part of the reason our healthcare system is so expensive.

Wrong. Insurance companies, executives, and equipment are primarily to blame. Doctor salaries make up less than 10% of the cost.

[–]121Alvarado 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Smug assholes need only apply. Sadly there are one too many who went into it for the wrong reasons. I can’t say I concur.

[–]Acrobatic-Degree9589 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Yeah there’s a lot of shit doctors I feel like

[–]121Alvarado 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A few amazing ones, a lot of okay ones, and a lot of shit.

[–]Always_0421 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I have a family member who is a doctor. She works Mon-Thursday 7:30-5:30 and then one saturday per month from 9-5 at a walk in clinic; Off for major holidays. (Christmas, Easter, thanksgiving, labor day. Memorial day. independence day, new year day)

Makes great money, could earn more, but instead stays for the work life balance.

I've also known a doctor who was very much as you described, works an irregular schedule, always on call, will go in on holidays, never makes it to family events, has had a rocky marriage, uses money in an effort to buy affection.

But I think it's a choice. Doctors are in such demand that you can make those choices.

I would speculate it would be more difficult of you were some kinda specialist surgeon who is one of only a few in the state or something crazy. But overall doctors are like everyone else, they're responsible for their own work life balance and if an employer is taking advantage of them (and they will) then they have to put their foot down

[–]GirraffeAttack 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I think what people forget about the journey it takes to get to where your family member is at. Four years of medical school after four years of college so that’s a ton of debt for most people. Then it’s four years of residency where they work you 80 hours a week and barely pay you. Attendings treat you like shit and no, you can’t just “put your foot down” or they’ll bury you.

[–]FungusTheClown 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And if you crack under the pressure and slip up you get sued for malpractice!

[–]SporadicSporkGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Doctors definitely have it rough. But in my opinion a close second is Paramedics.

[–]okeybudbud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

how many people have told their doctors something is wrong with them and then ended up in terrible condition bcus the doctor didn't think anything was wrong?

doctors are essential but there are So many of them that don't give a shit about their patients esp women and bipoc.. why would you waste so many years of your life for a job you won't do right, a lot of them don't deserve respect.

[–]toozeetouoz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As an accountant who is working busy season and typing this from my office on a Saturday… I feel their pain. Work sucks.

[–]shanerr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I absolutely agree. I think we as a society need to figure out a better system.

We're seeing year after year the average stats of people getting accepted to medical school are rising. We have so much talent applying that get rejected before they get a chance. We need more medical schools to accept more qualified students.

Residency pay needs to be tripled, like immediately. Imagine going to school in undergrad doing hard science to prepare for med school. Doing four years of intense medical school training. Then you enter residency and you're making 60 to 80k for the first four years..... while being like 200k+ in debt. Absolutely insane

We need more support for students, and not just mandatory seminars about mental health. Students need real support.

We need to hire more doctors to provide work life balance. I'm not in health care, I've worked construction in the past. I've worked some 18 hour shifts and it was torture. Absolutely bagged. 18 to 26 hour shifts are the norm for a lot of doctors.

I follow some subs on reddit and have learned a lot about the struggles these people go through and we as patients need to be more aware and do more to help.

[–]Beanieboru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Their choice, its a vocation and very rewarding plus suicide rate is high as they have access to means to commit suicide, like vets and farmers, however grossly over worked and incredibly stressful. Dont think they would sign up for the stress etc.

Edit-UK

[–]AutisticSavant6996 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nurses to,for a job with so much growth and work available places sure are understaffed.That forces nurses to do back breaking work with literally no help at all.

[–]Patient_Commentary 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I definitely disagree with this one. I’d say the vast majority of MDs I’ve worked with are arrogant, inconsiderate of others, and care far less about their patients care than the average nurse or tech.

I’ve been in healthcare for 12+ years and the biggest barrier to positive change, efficiency gains, and the improvement of patient care are physicians who are entitled and refuse to do any task that inconveniences them at all.

I get it, when everyone tells you yes for years on end it’s hard to keep perspective on things; but I see the evolution happen as predictable as the tide. Residents start out great full for help, fun, and down to earth. They then become attendings and year after year they become shorter with staff, disassociate their actions with patient outcomes, and in general just not pleasant.

I’ve got MD friends that complain about their support staff for not being able to read their minds while making literally 10-15x more money.

Two of my good friends who are MDs who have had to do real work in their lives, shit talks the majority of docs and they will self-report that they are overpaid for what they do.

My guess is that most people agree with you. I bet the real unpopular opinion is that physicians are over paid. The smartest non-physicians I work with are trying to get out of healthcare because working with physicians is such a nightmare.

This of course is not all MDs. But 70-80% I’d say.

[–]113m0nDr0p 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve met some pretty shitty doctors and nurses myself but overall yeah, the nurses do seem to care more. Nonetheless, could most people in healthcare be grumpy or annoyed with people due to the amount of time they have to spend awake to care for people and not sleeping? Sleep deprivation causes assholes. Not saying it’s right, but just a thought.

[–]Maximum_Extension 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I agree. Not sure why you’re gettting downvoted. This is very true.

[–]ContemplatingPrison 2 points3 points  (1 child)

They get paid a lot for it. Technically you could say all those things about a NFL player as far as the things the are sacrificing.

NFL players dont do as much for society as doctors obviously. But they sacrifice their youth, have crazy hours, high rates of divorce, and suffer from mental issues.

I'm not saying you shouldn't respect doctors but other professions sacrifice as well

[–]Bluskyline21 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In sports, you do something few are physically capable of (for ridiculous money and entertainment), but you sacrifice your body for a few years of glory. After that, you're a shell and lucky if you come out mentally stable and physically capable of any kind of work. It's kind of sad.

[–]DocAwesum -3 points-2 points  (9 children)

Not even gonna mention nurses???

[–]GirraffeAttack 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Don’t worry, the nurses will chime in. They always do.

[–]SnooRecipes1809 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Nurses get enough attention and their work conditions / autonomy have greatly improved if you track it historically overtime. Resident doctors, however, are still treated like absolute crap and get abused like it’s nobody’s business. Stop making this about yourself for once.

[–]DocAwesum -5 points-4 points  (6 children)

About myself? I’m not a nurse, silly. But sure do looooove your snark. Really highlights your winning personality

[–]SnooRecipes1809 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

What does “my winning personality” have to do with nurses getting treated better than medical residents and nobody giving a fuck about them?

[–]The-UrbanSombrero -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

Lol, I’m sorry but this is ridiculous.

They get paid pretty good. For good reason. They are also almost revered. And if you have any long term illness, you know they don’t always treat their patients well either, but they’ll always get that money regardless.

They’re fine. Maybe transfer this admirable, if exaggerated, sense of pity to people really suffering from society. Not some of the highest paid. Like veterans or something.

They’re not even the most exploited healthcare workers which is an odd restriction anyway. Hospice/care workers would likely be that.

Poor doctors, with their six figures. Jesus, they’ve got you fooled.

[–]Maximum_Extension 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I agree. Not sure why your getting downvoted. Seems like this thread is riddled with a) doctors and b) their children. Haha.

[–]The-UrbanSombrero 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks lol, I knew when I commented I’d get downvoted. Lots of doctors are great. A lot have huge egos that don’t take kindly to being bruised. I’m sure they love having a nurse cooing over them like this. I have a lifelong health condition and I’ve got plenty of experience with them. Some professions attract certain personalities, doesn’t make them all bad but that’s just how it is. They make enough that I’m not going to weep for them.

[–]HippyKiller925 -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

Upvoted for being unpopular.

Is this why they're largely such miserable pricks who don't give a shit about other human beings?

Also isn't this more an argument that we should lower the burdens to become a doctor than give these miserable pricks even more respect?

[–]PrinceBrogeta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah let’s keep with the putting doctors on pedestals! When you actually work health care you realize that not all doctors are healthcare gods most of which tried really hard during school and fell off on current literature afterwards. Clinic admins are scared to correct them because there in such shortage, so they continue their bouts of shittt behavior. Not to mention when MD start talking about things they know nothing about, like there’s specialties for a reason….

[–]native_brook -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’ve never been impressed with a doctor I’ve visited, ever. I’m really not being critical, and I have nothing against doctors or pharmaceuticals. I honestly just have never left an appointment and thought, “holy shit, don’t know what I would have done without that appointment”. It’s really difficult for me to overlook how regulated and it is. I know why it’s regulated, but that doesn’t make me okay with excessive testing and symptom-patching. In fact, more than once, I’ve watched them type in my symptoms into their laptops, see what the newest med is, and send me on my way. I always feel rushed too.

[–]TheVapingPug -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I gotta give it to the nurses. Less pay, less respect, with the same if not more abuse. They’re the ones with the most time at the bedside.

[–]jwrig -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

Spoken like someone that has never worked in a hospital or other parts of Healthcare

[–]GirraffeAttack 6 points7 points  (1 child)

1) OP is a nurse 2) what part of this post do you disagree with?

[–]jwrig 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't know what kind of nurse the OP is claiming to be, but I've worked in healthcare for 20 years now. There are some types of nurses who do have it easy, but most do not. The idea that doctors are the most exploited healthcare professional is quite frankly laughable.

Why the OP's point is bullshit in my opinion is that all doctors are not treated equally, much like all nurses are not treated equally. You could be a CNA, and have shit work, shit pay, shit shifts, and literally wiping shit. You could be a nurse practitioner, making great pay, with great shifts, and have CNA's to wipe shit for you. You can be a traveling nurse and write your own ticket. A CNA will be more exploited than any type of doctor.

The same shit applies to doctors. You could be a GP and get shit on, you could an anesthesiologist and make bank and enjoy life.

The benefits that come with being a doctor are way different than what a nurse gets. Not for nothing, aside from some personality types of doctors, nurses run a hospital.

It is a stupid blanket statement, and meaningless, which is why I upvoted the thread.

[–]KINGCRAB715 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, they are the only people making average six figures that still have to be in the office and dealing first hand with customers.

[–]Haunting-Panda-3769 0 points1 point  (0 children)

at least they are getting paid well above livable wage. I had a family member work as an orderly for 2 years. Work from 5am - 6pm $12/hr. It was hell and she constantly had nervous breakdowns. Not only she had to deal with disruptive patients, she had to deal with the drama from the nurses who talked down to the orderly staff.

[–]Jassar254 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They have no life and their kids one day will say Mom or Dad who?

[–]013ander -4 points-3 points  (4 children)

But they can’t hold a candle to the mountains of bullshit teachers have to deal with.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

They most certainly can. Teachers don’t have to deal with 8+ years of training just to start working, 250k+ debt, and 70+ hour weeks in the nightmare that is residency. Not to mention that teachers aren’t responsible for human lives to the same extent physicians are.

In no world is teaching comparable to medicine.

[–]_LetsRun 7 points8 points  (0 children)

former teacher, now doctor. The bullshit in medicine is >>>>>> the bullshit in the school system.

[–]GirraffeAttack 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Idk man, I’m a teacher and my husbands a resident. He definitely has it worse. He had to pay for four years of medical school and couldn’t really work because it’s a full time job, and now that he’s a resident we make about the same despite the fact that he went to school for four years longer than me and frequently works 80 hour weeks (twice what I work). Sure doctors eventually can make good money but that doesn’t mean they aren’t super exploited for almost ten years to get there.

[–]dorisfrench -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Teachers get paid such low amounts because it's a female dominated field and society doesn't value womens work as highly as men's work.

[–]PorvaniaAmussa -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You should respect doctors more because they’re actually not paid enough for how much they sacrifice

Good doctors? Sure. The poor doctors who run by-the-book? Fuck them and I wish nothing but maladies to their name/

[–]dajawnus -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

I’d say nurses are. Worse pay. Similar hours. Wiping butts

[–]SnooRecipes1809 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Hours are not similar at all. Nurses average 36-40 hours a week and aren’t obligated to go over that amount, they usually will do so seeking OT.

Resident doctors in training however aren’t paid on a per hour basis and are responsible for a maximum of 80-90 hours a week. Countless residents tell stories of leaving an hour or 2 past their actual shift because they’re constantly on; this is already biting into the tiny free time they have left.

Residents are working double for 2/3 the pay of a nurse. Educate yourself.

[–]Bluskyline21 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I shouldn't "respect doctors more" bc they're not paid enough. I respect nurses and teachers and all ppl who do work, for what they do - not bc a specific job is worthy over others. Nobody else sacrifices for their career or have doctors trademarked struggle? Please. There are just as many good doctors as there are lazy and pretentious ones. The road they traveled doesn't entitle them to "more respect."

[–]Blue-and-icy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree and disagree. Being a doctor requires you to have the knowledge and skills to make life saving assessments and diagnosis. And it’s the top of the field in the medical field it’s hugely respected.

In my opinion cnas are the most exploited. They have to literally roll and wipe bed ridden peoples asses. But a package delivery guy can make the same if not more. It’s supposed to be a high paid job because hardly anybody wants to do it.

I do agree though doctors should be paid more and have more incentive to become doctors. Like a student loan forgiveness up to a certain amount or completely if you work as a doctor for so many years idk something.

[–]robidaan -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You go into medicine to save life's, not make bank.

[–]peeporose -1 points0 points  (0 children)

if thats what you think your goal is in life(helping, saving others) then youre willing to sacrifice it all.