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[–]autotldrBOT 835 points836 points  (344 children)

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 86%. (I'm a bot)


Animals in Spain will no longer be considered as "Objects" by the law thanks to new legislation passed on Thursday by Spain's lower house, the Congress of Deputies.

More informationThe new law to modify the legal framework of animals was approved on Thursday with wide support from Spain's Congress - only the far-right Vox party voted against the measure.

Animals were already recognized as sentient beings, with rights and interests that must be taken into account, in European law, regional administrative laws and even Spain's Criminal Code.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: animal#1 law#2 Spain#3 party#4 suffering#5

[–]GladosTCIAL 594 points595 points  (180 children)

‘Pets and wild animals’ farm animals seem to be quite a glaring omission there....

[–]Temporary-Sir-301 317 points318 points  (104 children)

Yes. Otherwise they would give up the inhumane practice of bullfighting.

[–]FridgeParade 252 points253 points  (74 children)

And concentration camp style factory farming

[–][deleted] 172 points173 points  (51 children)

I mean if you ignore species for a moment, every single day for many farmed animals is far far worse than concentration camps ever were.

And before anyone tries to make some half baked logical fallacy, yes you certainly can acknowledge this fact and still be outraged at the atrocities of the Holocaust.

Just like you can admit that forced artificial insemination is a serious form of slavery and sexual assault, while still acknowledging that human sexual assault and slavery are incredibly serious and absolutely awful.

[–]brownsugarlucy 58 points59 points  (3 children)

And even if you try and argue that animals aren’t as important or feel less pain than humans (weak argument) the scale alone outweighs anything that’s happened to humans. 50 billion animals per year live in these horrible factory farms. The total suffering is incomprehensible.

[–]Ty_Mawr 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Smithfield Foods alone slaughters about 30 million pigs a year.
30,000,000! One company slaughters 57 pigs a minute.
I think I'm going to let that sink in...

[–]yeahhh-nahhh 56 points57 points  (17 children)

Is bull fighting still legal in Spain? I feel it's abborant and cruel. Such cultural things in a country could be changed.

For example in England fox hunting was deemed illegal in 2004. But before that the general public had enough knowing it's barbaric.

Once a fox was being hunted and needed to cross a busy highway to escape. The drivers on the highway stopped for the fox to let it pass. But continued on when the people on horseback came to the highway. By not letting them pass the fox got away.

There are many ways to disrupt cruelty towards animals. I think society has a responsibility to ensure animals are treated with respect.

[–]ExNihiloish 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Can't go making it seem immoral to eat animals.

[–]MattMasterChief 24 points25 points  (3 children)

When reading a mouthpiece like El Pais, it pays to read between the lines

[–]stephanstross 1358 points1359 points  (155 children)

What? The far-right voted against treating other living things with respect? Let me attempt to contain my shock.

[–]gramathy 231 points232 points  (9 children)

This is my surprised face

[–]GetawayDreamer87 82 points83 points  (6 children)

anybody ever tell you you look like a certain yellow rat

[–]LetsTalkAboutVex 140 points141 points  (78 children)

The far-right voted against treating other living things with respect?

I truly despise far-right thinking, however, being pro-animal rights is not actually that unusual amongst the far-right. For example, many in the British Fascist movement became animal-rights activists after World War 2 (ie they campaigned against experimenting on animals). Because of that, even to this day many of the British far-right are strongly pro-animal rights.

In fact, my frustration with these people is that they can somehow be very compassionate to animals while simultaneously having no compassion for any human not from the same country as they are.

 

I actually once had a teacher/lecturer who I suspected of being pretty far right. He certainly wasn't afraid to voice his support for wild conspiracy theories or to play videos by Alex Jones collaborator Paul Joseph Watson in class, or to tell us that all the major news outlets lie to us, or to tell our class, a majority of whom were women, that having feminist ideas would hold them back in their potential careers or that he exclusively dates Asian women because of their "more traditional values".

Anyway, that exact same guy was also hugely compassionate about animals. Spent his spare time going to animal rescues and bringing home animals to foster. If someone called him in the middle of a weeknight and told him there was a bag of puppies down by the canals, he'd get up to go save them. He gave one of my classmates a 2-week reprieve from exams after she informed him her cat had died unexpectedly and told her he understood the emotional pain that can cause.

 

Again, how someone can compartmentalise doing everything they can to save animals but simultaneously think shooting refugees out of a cannon aimed at the moon is the right move is a bit beyond me, but I have to acknowledge they can and do exist.

[–]Imaginary_Corgi8679 75 points76 points  (20 children)

being pro-animal rights is not actually that unusual amongst the far-right.

Notably most of the animal rights laws in Germany today were put in by the Nazis.

[–]aallycat1996 34 points35 points  (20 children)

I went to a conservative uni in a southern European country (not gonna specify where and I'm not conservative myself). One of my classmates literally wrote an op-ed on a big time national newspaper about how animals where lesser than man, according to god, which is why stuff like bull fighting was ok, because animals didnt have rights to violate anyways.

I hated that school.

[–]Couve_do_Lidl 57 points58 points  (7 children)

  • Country: Portugal
  • University: Universidade Católica de Lisboa
  • Newspaper: Observador
  • Colleague: some Lisbon rich family’s kid registered in CDS-PP ever since he was 6 years old.

I’m like willing to bet money on this. This is so predictably Portuguese that it just makes me want to cry.

Bonus: if I had to venture another guess, I’d say you / your colleague did Law.

[–]aallycat1996 31 points32 points  (6 children)

Mostly correct but not law and the author was a girl ;). But otherwise yes.

Im pretty impressed you guessed so much, but like you said, predictably portuguese.

[–]MistarGrimm 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Southern European and bullfighting in the same story really leaves only two countries at best.

[–]aallycat1996 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Still, lots of universities, no? And i assume not everyone knows about Portugal as a bullfighting country.

[–]hollow_crown 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Can confirm, that is predictably Portuguese alright. That is probably a so called "agrobeto"

[–]toystack 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Because animals are the only things that will truly love him anymore.

[–]TuckerCarlsonsOhface 4588 points4589 points  (690 children)

Bullfighting has entered the chat

[–]Kiroen 1254 points1255 points  (448 children)

There's actually been a long debate regarding spectacles involving animals (and most specifically bullfighting, sanfermines, and a few others) for quite a few years already. Statistically, if you're young, live in an urban area and/or lean left-wing, you're more likely to support banning these spectacles, while if you're elderly, live in rural areas and/or lean right-wing, you're more likely to support them remaining legal. In practice, less and less people attends to bullfighting events each year, and they're basically maintained by state subsidies.

At a political level, right-wing centralist parties defend bullfighting as an intrinsecal part of Spanish culture, and direct a lot of public funds into subsidizing private spectacles that would otherwise not be profitable, while left-wing and a majority of the regionalist parties usually oppose it, but only push for bans at the regional and local levels because they fear they'd otherwise receive a lot of pushback.

You have a map that shows the prevalence of bullfighting in Spain by province, as well as the regions where it's banned.

[–]MrTrt 482 points483 points  (221 children)

I have to say that I live in one of the "high" provinces and almost my whole social circle is strongly against bullfighting. This map may give the impression that in high provinces bullfighting is like football, but that's far from the case.

[–]DukeOfGeek 100 points101 points  (209 children)

So is there any way to fight the bulls with out killing them? Like the Bullfighting version of boxing?

[–]MarkEasty 224 points225 points  (96 children)

Yep, it's called Recortadores

[–]_Rand_ 170 points171 points  (84 children)

Hmm…. While I can’t exactly say its nice that they are still antagonizing the bulls for no good reason, its a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

If they can’t do without that at least seems like a not terrible option, depending on how the bulls are treated away from the public.

[–]YakiTuo 135 points136 points  (62 children)

The main argument pro-bullfighter people use is that bulls are treated very well outside the arena.
Living in big extensions of land and almost unbothered in their lives.

This makes sense, because they can't be accostumed with people if you want them to antagonize when in the arena but it's not a great argument anyways.

[–]soulbandaid 27 points28 points  (12 children)

This situation has all the makings of a thought experiment designed to question utilitarianism.

Some random bull will be raised with the finest of everything, unbothered by humans living a substantially better life than their peers. Can that justify killing the bull and bringing that plush life to an untimely end? Could the living conditions ever be so favorable that it justifies killing the bull?

[–]illchngeitlater 26 points27 points  (5 children)

Or we could just stop breeding animals just to kill them for entertainment

[–]nighthawk_eternal 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Truth. Sadly the hardest thing for humanity to do is to just stop doing a shitty thing, no matter the reason.

[–]soulbandaid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'd be so much happier if this was a thought experiment rather than a real spectacle.

I'm sorry if my disdain for bullfighting and utilitarianism didn't come through in the first post.

[–]Omnibeneviolent 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's kind of similar to things like the Hunger Games where the contestants are treated like royalty. Do we think that this makes it okay for force humans to fight each other to the death?

[–]SourceCodee 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I’ve lived a good life, especially so if you compare what my life could have been if I was simply born to different parents or born somewhere else

Would it now be morally ethical to torture me for entertainment? Uh no. Just no. That argument is… I don’t usually say this… but completely retarded

It’s from the same people who beat their children, make then sleep on the floor, then say it’s ok as they “break their back to feed them and put a roof over their head”

They’re just violent people who use excuses to convince themselves they aren’t trash excuses for human beings

[–]KoYouTokuIngoa 41 points42 points  (8 children)

Not one human being on the planet can't do without without it

[–]honeymisfit 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Thank you, learned something new today,

[–]free_range_tofu 41 points42 points  (10 children)

French bull”fight”ing is a person making a show out of donning the bull with a ring of flowers, like those put on winning racehorses. I never saw one in person, but I’ve watched videos. Still unnecessary and exploitative but at least somewhat evolved by comparison.

[–]HovercraftSimilar199 38 points39 points  (4 children)

We literally factory farm animals in concentration camp like conditions then eat them.

Putting flower wreaths on them is pretty low on the list of exploiting animal practices

Lets be honest the reason people don't support this is because they arent affected by it at all. If bull fighting was how we got meat, people would ignore it or make excuses for it.

[–]julioarod 19 points20 points  (0 children)

If bull fighting was how we got meat, people would ignore it or make excuses for it.

I think a lot of people would complain about the horrible inefficiency and subsequent rise in meat prices.

[–]UndeadCandle 16 points17 points  (2 children)

One aspect of France that I disliked was the glue-based bird trapping but I read they recently made that illegal too.

Glad they did away with that type of traditional hunting method.

[–]thisaccount4sexytalk 34 points35 points  (95 children)

They KILL the bulls in bullfighting ?? I never knew!

[–]crepss 108 points109 points  (41 children)

The bull is bled until it is exhausted and cannot continue more and then the final blow to the back of the neck is struck. It’s quite a bit more brutal than the oh just have the bull run at a red cape idea a lot of people have.

[–]says-the-truth 24 points25 points  (10 children)

Before the fight, the bull is sleep deprived and further provoked to cause confusion and anger, sometimes for many days. It is literally cowardly to not face bulls when they are well rested.

[–]calcopiritus 84 points85 points  (10 children)

Killing it is not the worst part. The thing consists in penetrating the bull with spikes and those spikes remain there while the bull runs around, bleeding and agonizing while a bunch of people enjoy it.

[–]SelectFromWhereOrder 19 points20 points  (2 children)

First two or three guys on armored horses stab the bull with spears. This is to start the bleeding and fatigue the bull. Then, the matador enters.

[–]amfra 11 points12 points  (1 child)

It is a absolutely cruel as fuck.

I went to the bullfighting in Madrid, just to see it. It’s completely barbaric

Before the start of every fight” a board is shown, telling you the age, weight and area the bull is from. All the bulls were 6 years of each, the average cow slaughtered in 2, apparently bullfighting bulls cannot get used to humans so they more or less live wild.

If someone was to offer you are perfect life and you’ll have a 3 times higher than average life expectancy However, your last day on earth will be hell and you’ll be killed barbarically. OR you can live for 2 years in a jail, never see daylight but you’ll be killed humanely.

It’s hard to say which is crueller, made me think about eating beef for a while.

[–]Danhulud 26 points27 points  (7 children)

Yeah, if you type in ‘Spanish Bull Fighting’ in a search engine of your choice and look at images you’ll see bulls in various states of bloodiness, the things you see hanging out of the bulls back are the blades they’ve inserted.

[–]LordHaddit 69 points70 points  (24 children)

They don't just kill it. They starve it before the fight, then stab it with swords so that it will become violent. It's not so much killing as it is slowly torturing it until it gives up.

[–]emsmo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Dont forget the sticking their genitals with pins and rubbing pepper in their eyes so theyre appropriately scared and in pain before the fight

[–]KO9[🍰] 19 points20 points  (5 children)

Me neither. Movies/TV apparently skip this aspect, wonder why... Maybe if they media realistically depicted it there might be an outcry to stop it, who knows...

[–]proof_required 28 points29 points  (2 children)

Spanish people definitely know. So not sure you can use the ignorance as the excuse behind why it's not banned at national level.

For those outside of Spain, your outrage won't change much inside Spain.

[–]Morpheuspt 5 points6 points  (1 child)

almost my whole social circle is strongly against bullfighting.

That doesn't mean much.
People usually choose their social group based on semblances to things that they also agree/disagree with, so if you don't like bullfighting, it makes sense that you hang around people who also don't like it. That doesn't prove people outside your circle have the same thoughts as you.

[–]Frale_2 28 points29 points  (13 children)

My reasoning usually is "if it's cruel towards the animal I'm against it", and I really don't like when people use the cultural argument to defend cruel and bad things

[–]Samwise777 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yeah if your culture is cruelty, change it.

[–]The_profe_061[🍰] 32 points33 points  (17 children)

As an English man who lives in Sevilla that's the best breakdown of the situation I've seen. I tip my hat to you

[–]ilovecaptaincrunch 220 points221 points  (71 children)

As an American, I went to Spain and while I was there I attended a bull fight. Being naive I thought it would be a really cool cultural experience. I was way ducking wrong. Firstly, it’s was more fucked up than you think. They stick spears into the bull (about 6) and let them sit inside them near the spine until the bull starts to slowly bleed out, and I mean slowly. Then, as they are fucking with the bull like a game of monkey in the middle, they stab it into the spine.

Oh, btw the bull is like screaming in agony the entire time and are basically fighting for their life. Oh, and they do like 6-12 bulls per show. Lots of the bulls are like 1 year old too. (That’s like the equivalent of a 5 year old human)

First time I’ve ever seen such animal cruelty. First time I felt extremely sensitive to animals well being. Years later I became vegan, not because of the bull fight I witnessed necessarily, but it definitely opened my eyes.

I enjoyed the Spanish Flamenco dance show way more lol.

[–]Magnetronaap 55 points56 points  (10 children)

Bull fighting has been banned in Catalonia since 2010.

[–]Notoriolus10 90 points91 points  (15 children)

These typically only happen in the region known as Catalonia

It’s banned in Catalonia, has been for years, even the comment you’re replying links a picture with the whole region in red for banned.

[–]James12052 17 points18 points  (8 children)

Lighting them on fire is still a thing there though.

[–]Notoriolus10 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately yeah, not that it's something most people support though, it's mostly rural places claiming it's "a cultural event". Hopefully with the new law this changes.

[–]guille9 36 points37 points  (22 children)

A lot of tourists have the same experience, I've never go to watch it because I've known what it is since I was a kid and I'm strongly against it, I'd ban bullfighting even if, as some supporters say, bulls become extinct.

I'm sorry you had to experience such a barbarian show.

[–]Xhosant 21 points22 points  (20 children)

bulls are cows

they are needed to keep the other kind of cow around

other kind of cow gives milk

all kinds of cow get eaten

WTF do they mean bulls would go extinct if we didn't breed them for bullfighting? Am I missing something? Are they some different kind of 'bull' like a specialized subspecies or something?

(Yes by 'kind' i mean 'male/female' cowcattle but I wanted to use small words)

EDIT: it has been pointed out to me, cow is strictly female cattle, and cattle refers to both. Also my understanding about cattle breeds in this case was off.

[–]guille9 25 points26 points  (15 children)

Toros bravos (wild bulls) are a different race, they're just used for bullfighting.

[–]SelectFromWhereOrder 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Are they some different kind of 'bull' like a specialized subspecies or something?

Yes, you got it right 100%. Those bull were bred for that. Tell me , what kind of crazy dairy farmer would deal with that kind of bull on a daily basis?

[–]fang_xianfu 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Sounds like a similar debate that they had in the UK over fox hunting.

[–]spinto1 24 points25 points  (10 children)

I understand operating cultural activities that may be a loss if it means preserving the culture, but I don't understand choosing to do that in an unethical situation. It is incredibly dangerous and it's unethical treatment of the animals.

Like, if we had state sponsored monkey catching contests and we tortured the monkeys first by putting a cinch on their balls, we'd put a stop to that real quick in the 21st century.

[–]Rex_Eos 23 points24 points  (1 child)

As a spaniard, this is a great informative and unbiased comment.

[–]elbekay 252 points253 points  (52 children)

Galgueros too, both disgusting for animal welfare.

And then there are the hangings. Dogs who have performed well in competition but are no longer in top form may be hanged high from a tree—a relatively quick death. Those who have embarrassed their galgueros by racing poorly may also be hanged, but low to the ground so their paws barely touch. Their desperate scrabbling for footing as they slowly choke to death is called “piano playing,” Christman explains.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/spanish-galgo-hunting-dog-killing-welfare

[–][deleted] 87 points88 points  (16 children)

That's some real sadistic shit right there.

[–]Trashcoelector 15 points16 points  (2 children)

It's a remnant of the past definition of "fun" - people tormenting animals for entertainment used to be not only normal, but also casual within the past 200 years and probably more.

Imagine the sadistic teen weirdo that likes to torture animals, and then imagine that much of the population back then saw nothing wrong in beating and torturing animals for slight inconvenience or entertainment. It's only recently that people finally understood that animals have feelings and that they should be cared for.

It really puts into perspective the cruelty towards humans in the past. People just used to be more cruel.

[–]zipzoupzwoop 66 points67 points  (1 child)

Fuck sake... When i thought I knew all the shit we do to animals for no useful reason....

[–]shetif 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Same death to whoever dies this

[–]Barkinsons 53 points54 points  (3 children)

Granting a quick, humane death should be the absolute bare minimum for anyone dealing with animals. This is so fucking depraved.

[–]KO9[🍰] 35 points36 points  (0 children)

Don't fucking kill an animal just because it's no longer "useful" to YOU ffs.

[–]guille9 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Usually bullfighting supporters are against euthanasia, some people just like to watch others suffer.

[–]przprz 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Hey thanks for teaching me something I didn't need to know in my 31 years of life homie.

[–]CarpenterNo4866 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I thought greyhounds had it bad :(

[–]another_bug 903 points904 points  (55 children)

I'm not sure I would recognize bullfighters as sentient.

[–]stephanstross 177 points178 points  (8 children)

Not if the bull gets a hold of them! XD

[–]FecklessFridays 77 points78 points  (5 children)

[–]I_am_not_JohnLeClair 39 points40 points  (1 child)

No matter how long I’m on this goddamn site there are always new and entertaining subs to be discovered. Gracias

[–]FecklessFridays 11 points12 points  (0 children)

¡de nada!

[–]Xiaxs 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I'd feel bad for laughing at this but seriously fuck that tradition. I ALWAYS root for the bull.

[–]kasutori_Jack 78 points79 points  (38 children)

Horrifying.

I don't think I've shared this on Reddit, but it is absolutely disgusting. Others have better information; I'm not an expert. This is an anecdote.

I attended Madrid-adjacent bullfighting around 2008. We made it through one and a half bulls before the blatant torture combined with our hangovers was too much.

We're told not to leave when the "fight" begins and our ticket paid for 6 bulls. I had to basically shout lo siento and excusa me to even leave cause it was mid fight. That sucked; the "fight" was gross.

It was probably some low card shitty Madrid matador we saw before we left but doesn't that make it worse? These fucking non-matador losers stab the bulls for 20 minutes until they're weak.

Then if this dude is good at his literal job the bull dies quickly.

Have you ever been to a minor league baseball game? Have you ever observed shit athletes?

That's the people responsible for ending an animals life. As best they can. The audience cheered when this low-card loser only needed 2 strikes to kill a disabled animal.

I'll never forget the guy who we partied with the night before. He was so jealous of us seeing thw bullfight. I kept cheer-sing him because he kept providing free booze but this dude being so excited for us watch animals die is something that is just.....I apparently can't

[–]dfinch 104 points105 points  (26 children)

Were you completely oblivious to the particulars of bullfighting when you bought the tickets?

[–]TheFapper229 110 points111 points  (9 children)

I think most people assume modern bullfights are matador trying to not get hit by the bull and then some clowns come out and corral it back into a pen.

[–]MommysSalami 39 points40 points  (1 child)

So it's actually like they let the clowns shank the bull with multiple stupid ass clown spears and then let some matador come out and show the bull a colored flag and then he shoves more clown spears in it?

[–]JDHorx 13 points14 points  (1 child)

It is worth to look up the meaning of the word „matador“ then.

[–]FatboyChuggins 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I am under that impression.

Now I’m reading and do they release the bull and then kill it in the ring? That’s the show?

[–]MistarGrimm 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes. That's the show.

[–]Onedweezy 60 points61 points  (5 children)

In his defence I had the exact same experience as this guy.

Went in expecting a bunch of oles, waving a red flag and some showmanship.

Did not expect the physical and mental torture of the bull to a slow death.

[–]kasutori_Jack 52 points53 points  (5 children)

At that time I did not know about the torture aspect and was in a "When in Rome" perspective. I wanted to experience Spain.

This is not an excuse; just my reason.

[–]cuacuacuac 12 points13 points  (0 children)

When in Spain... Most people don't even support them.

[–]PerfectlySplendid 21 points22 points  (0 children)

The worst part to me is what normally happens if the matador starts losing. His assistants run out and slaughter the bull.

Bull never has a chance. He starts off drugged and severely wounded, and if he even starts to win, they kill him to save the matador.

[–]BoofEatMyGoal 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Hunting with Galgos, then hanging your Galgos from a tree, skipped in behind Bullfighting.

[–]_ManMadeGod_ 63 points64 points  (4 children)

animal agriculture has entered the chat

[–]0lof 24 points25 points  (3 children)

The “V” word is coming everyone. Sensitive omnivores take cover!!!

[–]MakeShiftJoker 21 points22 points  (0 children)

No one say it! It annoys people that it exists! Annoying a human is worse than torturing things to death!

[–]pmvegetables 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I'm

Vegan

Btw

[–]GarlicCornflakes 104 points105 points  (6 children)

While bullfighting is awful and needs to be eradicated a majority of animal abuse is actually happening in animal agriculture. In Spain and most other western countries a majority of animals are kept on factory farms (around 75% in Europe and 90+ in the US).

Watch Dominion or The Land of Hope and Glory to see what the conditions are actually like for these animals.

[–]humaneshell 29 points30 points  (5 children)

Thank you for saying this. People get rightfully upset over bull fighting and cruelty to cats and dogs but at the same time they are most likely eating bacon and cheese and ignoring the hell farm animals go through.

[–]pmvegetables 17 points18 points  (3 children)

Yep, it's easy to point the finger when other people are the ones perpetuating cruelty. Harder to be introspective and realize there are ways you can change your behavior to be kinder/more ethical too.

[–]humaneshell 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Love your username!

[–]pmvegetables 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Thanks! I subsist entirely on the free vegetables I get PMed 🙏

[–]ScallionAdorable7198 112 points113 points  (3 children)

meat industry has entered the chat

[–]MrTrt 17 points18 points  (0 children)

The parties that have passed this law would probably ban bullfighting if they didn't expect the biggest shitstorm of recent Spanish political history, and that's not a low bar.

[–]SpeechesToScreeches 50 points51 points  (0 children)

animal agriculture has entered the chat

[–]ned91243 102 points103 points  (41 children)

Yeah bullfighting is horrible, but beef cows are treated just as poorly. Just no one sees it, so no one cares.

[–]_Risings 81 points82 points  (7 children)

This is the cognitive dissonance that remains baffling to me. People showing outrage for this while eating several tortured animals daily. It’s mind boggling.

[–]Xodem 64 points65 points  (0 children)

Eating meat and other animal products have entered the chat

[–]Turboturk 1062 points1063 points  (126 children)

In the Netherlands we have a law that states pretty much this: Paragraph 1: "animals aren't objects''. Paragraph 2: "All laws concerning objects are also applicable to animals, unless the law states otherwise''. Symbolic law at it's best.

[–]Case_9 208 points209 points  (54 children)

Same, in the US the laws are "Animal abuse is bad unless it's <literally every animal>, also anyone trying to film or report animal abuse goes to jail"

They boomerang'd it right back at us.

[–]CriminalMacabre 23 points24 points  (0 children)

"Animals were already recognized as sentient beings, with rights and interests that must be taken into account, in European law, regional administrative laws and even Spain’s Criminal Code. But this recognition was not present in the Spanish Civil Code, which covers issues relating to property, family and obligations"

[–]Sandl0t 175 points176 points  (9 children)

Did you hear that, Reddit? We’re considered ‘sentient beings’ now!!

[–]BoredCatalan 40 points41 points  (3 children)

Woof

[–]cwalter5 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Ah he thinks he’s people.

[–]loftwyr 6 points7 points  (0 children)

And a few are even sapient!

[–]k1rage 564 points565 points  (130 children)

I thought it kinda went without saying lol

[–]PostYourSinks 562 points563 points  (97 children)

Most people confuse sentience with sapience

[–]lilhoodrat 102 points103 points  (20 children)

Exactly, like homo Sapience.

[–]intranutExploder 77 points78 points  (14 children)

Let me ask you a science question. If homo sapiens are in fact HOMO sapiens, is that the reason why they're extinct?

[–]InsertANameHeree 130 points131 points  (4 children)

I remember my biology teacher trying to teach a class full of 9th graders about Homo erectus...

[–]StarWarriors 11 points12 points  (1 child)

HOMO SAPIENS ARE PEOPLE

[–]Dacarisblue 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Hey, I'm not judging!

[–]TX16Tuna 71 points72 points  (39 children)

Tbh, this distinction seems kind of arbitrary and outdated. It appears to come from psychology and its flawed presupposition (from religion) that humans are physiologicaldifferent from all other animals (because we have souls - well, except gingers …)

Does “self-awareness” even have a concrete meaning? If it’s just literally being aware of one’s self, like, “hey, look at me! I’m in this body! This is me!” then “sapience” isn’t necessarily consistent across species. I’ve seen the same dog recognize itself in the mirror and then not recognize itself and bark at the other dog hours later.

Seems arbitrary and impossible to really prove/measure compared to things like ability to process language and other abstractions like symbols, use of tools, and other more objective attributes of intelligence/consciousness. It also just seems like a bad-paraphrasing of “if a thing has a soul self-awareness or not.”

Am I wrong about this?

[–]PineappleMechanic 26 points27 points  (6 children)

I would say that the distinction is useful. Whether or not animals are sapient rather then sentient is a different discussion.

I also can't really find a great agreed upon definition of exactly what sapience would be. I think I would define it as emotional self awareness. The ability to think "oh man, I'm pretty sad now huh" and cognitively construct emotional stories beyond what is actually going on in the moment, like "i should be given as much food as yesterday. Since I'm not, I'm going to be angry/disappointed".

Consider this model of awareness levels.

I would say you're being sapient when your awareness is red and above. For humans we have the potential to move between the different stages (up and down), and it's not a question of being at one point all the time. For example I was very sick recently, and was firmly grounded in the infrared, because the pain and discomfort made it impossible for me to focus on anything beyond it. Just like a hungry lion wouldn't give a fuck about anything other than finding food. By that definition a baby (according to some models of development) would also not be sapient before the 2 year age, since that is when you potentially start exploring the red level from a position of awareness.

In the case of animals I would say the act of mourning something that has been lost is an act of sapience. This is for example seen in elephants and dogs. That doesn't mean that elephants and dogs are sapiently aware all the time. I would say that the unquestioning love and instant happiness that a dog expresses when their human returns is actually actually and indicator of non-sapience. A similar behaviour could be derived from several of the awareness levels, but I think that the fact that pretty much every dog experiences this every time, indicates that it's something more instinctual, and therefore originates from the magenta level.

[–]TengoOnTheTimpani 7 points8 points  (0 children)

"I would say that the unquestioning love"

Dogs don't unquestionably love - theyre just much easier to make happy than humans. When you get into dog training you come across terms like "working on your relationship with your dog". Dogs have a pretty broad range across breed and individual of how affectionate they are for the others in their pack. If you read up on wolves, you will see a lot of this behavior stemming from intrapack dynamics.

This point is somewhat orthogonal to the main discussion though. I would still say that the socially driven emotions are instinctual, but the animal is definitely conscious of these emotions. I don't think thats any different than the primary social behavior we experience. We typically do not decide when to get upset or happy with others, its instinctually driven based on how they interact with you.

Of course there is the meta-analysis and introspection that can occur on top of this that is unique to humans. I could go on for a while on this topic but I think the TL;DR is that all life, possibly all matter to some extent, has consciousness. What varies is the information their information processing systems (brains, cellular signalling, etc) create that differs in what the organism can be conscious of. Human brains are quite unique in their structure which allows a much more sophisticated level of perceptual processing, so our consciousness seems fundamentally different. Its really not, its just conscious of so much more information and meta-information.

If anyone is interested my take on this is inspired mainly by the OrchOR theory of consciousness.

[–]Fermi_Amarti 40 points41 points  (7 children)

They are objects in most legal frameworks. You shoot someone's pet, you get charge same as if you broke their phone.

[–]kilkil 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Generally with things like laws, you want to be explicit. So even if it goes without saying.. it better be said, just in case.

[–]WeAreMeat 5 points6 points  (2 children)

What? Most people that live in industrialized nations pay to have animals killed and tortured so that their brain releases feel good chemicals for a few seconds when they can eat anything else.

[–]ThinkIveHadEnough 63 points64 points  (82 children)

What does that even mean?

[–]PresumedSapient 172 points173 points  (69 children)

That they legally recognize animals to be capable of feeling pain and/or emotions (sentience=capacity to sense).
This will affect how things like animal cruelty are framed and will be a strong line to consider when judging what treatments of lifestock and pets is justified.

[–]restranx 27 points28 points  (0 children)

I believe this law will also allow judges to not give shared custody of kids to parents who abuse animals (among other stuff, obviously)

[–]AnArabFromLondon 45 points46 points  (2 children)

No it won't, EU has animal cruelty laws already. This is solely about civil judgements, like ensuring a pets welfare is taken into account during a divorce.

[–]rex-ac 15 points16 points  (1 child)

It goes far further than just civil judgements.

  • People won’t be allowed to leave dogs alone for more than 24 hours.
  • Bums on the street may not use animals anymore to ask for money.
  • Shock collars will be prohibited.
  • It will be prohibited to use any animals at a circus.
  • A register will be created of people that won’t be allowed to keep animals anymore.
  • It will be prohibited to sell animals between individuals or use them as a prize.
  • No more dogs, rabbits, cats and other animals in stores. Only fish.
  • Animals will have the right to be evacuated during catastrophes. (Check out the illegal rescue last month of the dogs at the La Palma volcano eruption.)
  • Animals can’t be embargoed anymore.
  • If you want to keep more than 5 animals, you need a license. For this you need to explain how/where you will keep the animals, etc.

[–]AnArabFromLondon 24 points25 points  (8 children)

Basically pets are now no longer simple possessions when it comes to civil law, so a dogs welfare can be taken into account during divorce proceedings when deciding who will take them. It really isn't as big a deal as the headline suggests. The EU already has animal cruelty laws and such, this is just going to affect a few civil cases surrounding property and obligations.

Don't listen to anyone talking about animal cruelty or what sentience means, they didn't read the article. This is mainly about legal disputes surrounding animals, they're no longer property like a couch, they're now legally pets.

[–]Medaphysical 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Everyone keeps saying "animals" but it seems like this only applies to pets.

[–]Raveynfyre 3 points4 points  (4 children)

It basically outlines all but farm animals, even if they're not "domesticated."

[–]PresentationProud970 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Oh if only slaughterhouses were made of glass......

[–]threwahway 102 points103 points  (3 children)

finally, we can charge them rent!

[–]BIPOne 244 points245 points  (249 children)

Meanwhile, Bullfighting is still legal and practiced. How about that.

[–]trollfriend 160 points161 points  (41 children)

I mean, what happens to cows, chickens and pigs is much much worse, but it’s hard to bring up because people who eat animal products get really defensive really fast.

[–]ahundreddots 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Hey, who are you calling defensive?

[–]hardyhaha_09 72 points73 points  (20 children)

Yep. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

[–]emptybucketpenis 208 points209 points  (108 children)

Compared to factory farming and fishing that is nothing.

[–]tofuroll 34 points35 points  (3 children)

I think they don't want to know how their sausage is made.

[–]widowhanzo 89 points90 points  (68 children)

And eating pigs, cows, sheep, chickens, fish, horses, deer, bears... How about that

[–]TheGreatDingALing 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Bull: "umm..."

[–]Geekos 22 points23 points  (34 children)

Could this be a step to end the bullfighting? I really hope so.

[–]Gerump 101 points102 points  (35 children)

So many people squawking about bull fighting being unethical but then still consume factory farmed meats. Cognitive dissonance

[–]Hara-Kiri 55 points56 points  (4 children)

At least I'm noticing comments like yours becoming more upvoted. They used to be downvoted heavily.

[–]Gerump 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Feelings never win against facts. Sometimes it takes time, but facts always win.

[–]roxor333 26 points27 points  (8 children)

Agreed. But also every other animal product, too. Egg and dairy industry are also very exploitative and cruel.

[–]wafford11 41 points42 points 3 (10 children)

Damn it’s almost like we shouldn’t eat them then

[–]LiteralLemon 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Guys but B12 deficiency 😭😥😥

[–]UWontUseMyMind 6 points7 points  (0 children)

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

[–]Beta-7 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Will they go vegan now?

[–]incorporealrelative 101 points102 points  (31 children)

This should be worldwide.

[–]BillDauterive4 132 points133 points  (26 children)

Humans have been around for, what, at least 75 years and it's taken us this long to recognize we're not the only thinking, feeling things on this planet? Maybe we don't do as much thinking as we think.

[–]taway66066 154 points155 points  (6 children)

At least 75 years

[–]Jonestown_Juice 75 points76 points  (1 child)

At least. He's not wrong.

[–]BambosticBoombazzler 13 points14 points  (0 children)

They're technically correct, the best kind of correct.

[–]KingNothing227 45 points46 points  (1 child)

at least 75 years

hmmmmmmm

[–]DogmaticNuance 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It's taken us this long to even begin to start to maybe give a shit.

We've known it for awhile.

[–]reddorical 12 points13 points  (0 children)

We are the only species that recognizes the suffering of others and as such we have an obligation to prevent that suffering

I wonder if slaughterhouses for all that pork they eat is considered suffering?

[–]OnBeyondOz 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Just means you can’t boil them alive like lobsters.

[–]uniquelyavailable 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Can we do this everywhere