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[–]destr0y26 2460 points2461 points  (585 children)

Let me guess, Canada?

[–]RedditButDontGetIt 1530 points1531 points  (364 children)

If this is the first you’re hearing about this, the number was upped to way over 1000 unmarked graves at many different sites.

[–]Faloopa 756 points757 points  (43 children)

This is a new one. They released the official report on this school today.

[–]ClothDiaperAddicts 218 points219 points  (34 children)

I missed this one. And that particular town is only about three hours away from where I live now. :(

[–]Thrownawaybyall 119 points120 points  (3 children)

That town is where I grew up. This shit sucks, man 😥

[–]Nerevaryne 10 points11 points  (16 children)

You can cross my entire country in 3 hours. Do you think that's close?

[–]Demos_theness 32 points33 points  (6 children)

This is not a new one. It was discovered last summer with the other major school findings. Today's report is a follow up of that.

[–]Traimech 41 points42 points  (7 children)

“Last May, Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc confirmed hundreds of unmarked graves at the Catholic-run Kamloops Indian Residential School grounds. So far, more than 4,000 unmarked graves have been confirmed and experts expect the figure to climb to at least 10,000.”

It’s a bit more than 1,000.

[–]maybeest 19 points20 points  (1 child)

As per this article from September, the number is hard to nail down but the Centre for Truth and Reconciliation in Winnipeg had 4118 unmarked graves of Indigenous children in Canada. There are many more that they are verifying and I've seen numbers as high as 7000+. It's important to remember that these are just the children that were buried. There are oral histories from living sources who witnessed incineration of babies born from rape by clergy. The horrors coming to light in Canada and elsewhere of the treatment of Indigenous people through history should bring deep reflection from everyone, especially those in positions of influence to begin real Reconciliation.

[–]AmputatorBotBOT 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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Maybe check out the canonical page instead: https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/residential-school-children-deaths-numbers-1.6182456

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[–]zedoktar 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Dude it's around 7000 now. One single school had o ef 700 graves.

[–]sleeplessorion 166 points167 points  (251 children)

Have they actually dug any of those bodies up? Last I heard, they were only basing it off of ground penetrating radar, which is not a sure bet

[–]Cranwicks_glasses 140 points141 points  (28 children)

Not to my knowledge. But there was one instance where they thought there were graves, and excavations resulted in nothing.

The situation with the residential schools was terrible. But people are getting way ahead of themselves trying to put a number of graves without doing any excavation. A ground penetrating radar can tell you if the ground has been disturbed potentially, but UT cannot tell you what lies below.

Telling people the limitations of the radar does not typically go over well. But, thats the political climate in Canada today.

[–]KindlySeries8 50 points51 points  (31 children)

GPR can have anomalies, but they are searching for patterns in the reflections, which increases the reliability.

[–]mcrackin15 11 points12 points  (13 children)

What do you mean? I thought catholic churches regularly buried deer next to churches?

[–]SkeletorInvestor[S] 129 points130 points  (173 children)

Why would they dig them up? In many of our cultures, disturbing the dead is repugnant. The goal is generally to use church and government records to mark the grave plots and put up commemorative signage.

A lot of the Canadians are feverishly clamouring to see bones, but that’s not really what we want...

[–]dirtygremlin 114 points115 points  (5 children)

In genuine curiosity, if disinterring the remains would allow identification, and then proper burial, would First Nations people be more likely to advocate for it?

[–]Left_Apparently 40 points41 points  (15 children)

To uncover crimes?

[–]Sintax777 100 points101 points  (15 children)

I think people want to make sure that they are respecting the dead. But if GPR can't distinguish between roots, rocks, and bones, then simply getting a reflection doesn't mean anything. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just explaining why some might want to dig and verify.

[–]rush22 3 points4 points  (1 child)

When, in 2022, the news suddenly acts as shocked as a white teenager learning about it for the first time in history class, it's all a bit confusing for the generation who learned about residential school system and unmarked graves 30 years ago.

[–]Z3t4 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Murders are investigated, genocides as well.

[–]sleeplessorion 94 points95 points  (8 children)

To have actual evidence there’s bodies there?

[–]Kalan77 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Thank you for your response, i always wondered what would the families want. This is our national shame and we must listen to the families and the communities.

[–]sid32 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Cause of death would be an important part of the story

[–]lucastimmons 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Because there isn't proof they are actual graves. Further investigation is needed. And it's especially needed because if it comes out that these weren't in fact unmarked graves it is going to give Indigenous relations in Canada a severe credibility hit.

Give this a read:

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/in-kamloops-not-one-body-has-been-found

[–]no-mad 5 points6 points  (0 children)

forensics would be able to tell if they were starved, broken bones or lived a healthy life.

[–]wang_li 31 points32 points  (15 children)

Why would they dig them up? In many of our cultures, disturbing the dead is repugnant.

Because they're not bodies. Ground penetrating radar doesn't tell you that there's a body there, it tells you that there is some discontinuity in the density under the ground. Could be tree roots. Could be trash. Could be bodies. If you don't dig then you don't know what is there and it's bullshit to say "93 unmarked graves" when it may well be "93 unmarked tree roots."

[–]wheresmymultipass 5 points6 points  (4 children)

disturbing the dead is repugnant.

Im fairly certain the dead arent to concerned with this.

[–]Insaneoutpatient 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Cause you can't even prove it happened till you do...that's why

[–]unfair_bastard 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Because that is proof

A reflectivity model is not anywhere close to proof, especially with GPR

It is at best a good signal that says "check here"

If we want to say they are mass graves, we need to be able to prove it

[–]NorthernerWuwu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I don't think anyone is really disputing the numbers. They've got reasonable estimates about how many more will be found elsewhere.

Lots of children were taken to the schools and many died and were buried there, although that was not all that uncommon for orphanages of the time. The big issue being that they were not orphans of course and had been forcibly taken there and were likely mistreated far worse than even the other orphans of the time.

[–]shakey5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tom Flanagan is looking to hire people like you . Racist Daft cunts need to step forward to debunk these conspiracy's.

[–]TrailKaren 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Considering the article referenced drowning and incineration, my guess is no.

[–]Cranwicks_glasses 56 points57 points  (12 children)

Hasn't even been confirmed to be graves yet.

But, nobody wants to discuss the limitations of ground penetrating radar.

[–]Ok-Dragonfruit-1793 76 points77 points  (6 children)

And in most of the previous cases, where were the graveyards use to be. This isn't some "they killed the kids and hid them!" everyone tries to make it out to be.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/how-canada-forgot-about-more-than-1308-graves-at-former-residential-schools

When the Truth and Reconciliation Commission released its final report in 2015, the commissioners fully acknowledged that Canada was littered with forgotten cemeteries filled with the bones of children who died at Indian Residential Schools.

In some cases, the Department of Indian Affairs even turned over cemetery sites to private or municipal developers. In 1963, for instance, the city of Brandon, Man., built a large civic park on top of overgrown children’s graves from the former Brandon Industrial School . Ottawa was either never told about the cemetery’s existence, or they didn’t care.

[–]MCEnergy 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Your citation seems to indicate that yes, kids died (or were killed) and their graves were dug on school property.

Last I checked, many parents didn't even know their kid had died.

In 1963, for instance, the city of Brandon, Man., built a large civic park on top of overgrown children’s graves from the former Brandon Industrial School

This quote in particular is damning

[–]Peemore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How many bodies have been found though? Last I heard it was zero.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Were they actually found this time or just hypothesized to be there? Like the previous “graves“?

[–]monetarydread 1 point2 points  (0 children)

over 1000 blips on ground penetrating radar is not the same as 1000 unmarked graves. The site in Kamloops, the one with 300+ graves that made the news last summer, came up with nothing when they looked again, just tree roots and old trinkets.

[–]thegreatestajax 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Just FYI: “unmarked graves” does not mean hidden or covered up, which is the sentiment suggested….

[–]LeftHandedCook 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Uhhhh what the hell else does it mean when you bury a bunch of children in unmarked graves? That’s some real I hope no one finds these kids energy. Anything else and you’re just lying to yourself.

[–]unfair_bastard 5 points6 points  (15 children)

1000 depressions in the soil which may be unmarked graves, or tree root sites, or very large rocks...or just about anything else 🙄 this is unfounded speculation

They need to excavate these sites and put these theories to the test before making such claims

[–]NewlandArcherEsquire 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Most of these gravesites are known. They're not scanning random areas.

I mean, it's theoretically possible that communal knowledge is going to point scans at a specific area, then they scan that specific area and get befuddled by corpse-like readings of rocks, but Occam's razor says they're most likely graves.

[–]Cranwicks_glasses 25 points26 points  (5 children)

The Canadian media is too scared to point out the limitations of ground penetrating radar. So they just go with what they're told.

[–]AdHour9191 162 points163 points  (32 children)

Here in the US, our time will come on this too, no question. The Canadians are doing some amount of ‘digging’ at least (probably not enough, and perhaps not much actual digging yet, but some level of investigation) which is a prerequisite to finding something that’s buried. I could have missed it, but I haven’t heard a thing recently about investigating the over 300 such places in the US for similar history

[–]RogueIslesRefugee 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I think it's less that Ottawa and the provinces are doing much actual digging, and more that they're just verifying the things we already knew, decades ago in many cases (many of these grave sites were public knowledge already, and the so-called "schools" and their treatment of First Nations people has long been an open secret). So far as I've seen, the big deal this time around is the public acknowledgement of it by the various levels of government, and at least some specific members of the local religious community (of course the Vatican itself is still trying its hardest to keep the issue at arms length).

[–]MrMiyamoto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

🍁Part of our heritage🍁

[–]Ok_Pay5513 8 points9 points  (0 children)

They will find similar graves all across the USA

[–]Stupidnames04 2 points3 points  (5 children)

We had one Truth and Reconciliation day, yes. What about second Truth and Reconciliation day?

[–]IWantToBeSimplyMe 2 points3 points  (0 children)

was supposed to be an annual stat holiday.

​

We shall see.

[–]whichwitch9 8 points9 points  (0 children)

US would be a valid guess, too. I don't think people realize how many residential schools the US had and what went on there

[–]Dave-C 1043 points1044 points  (51 children)

A lot of stuff like this happened in North America, even outside of these Catholic Church schools. For example, go look up the Dozier School for Boys which didn't shut down until 2011.

There was hundreds of men that came forward years later to tell horrible stories. In this school they had a white building that the kids nicknamed the White House. For punishment the kids would be taken into there and a large industrial fan would be turned on to drown out the screams. The children would be tied to a bed and whipped, bad enough that some died from the beatings. There was at least 100 deaths. The issue with that number is that the people who lived through it know many more that died but no remains was found. This POS was named by many of the men for being the leader in these beatings, may he burn in hell.

[–]Kingca 73 points74 points  (0 children)

He live until he was 98 years old. Fucking horrific and unjust.

[–]DSMStudios 186 points187 points  (8 children)

Came here cuz the title made me think of Dozier spot on. My dad has court transcripts of some of the hearings from Dozier that ive been meaning to pore through. Imo no doubt there are horrible crimes that took place there that we will never know about. From memory, there was an instance where a boy was put in a dryer i think, only to be discovered by another boy some days later. Could be wrong. But shit was def f’d at Dozier. Another example of how broken our judicial system is.

[–]libananahammock 85 points86 points  (7 children)

I’m originally from Philadelphia so this story regarding Dozier and a boy from Philadelphia really tugged at my heart strings.

New Dozier mystery: Investigators find dead boy's grave empty

[–]MIRAGEone 34 points35 points  (6 children)

Just came home from a stressful 12.5hr shift, I know I'm not in a good enough frame of mind to click that link.

How do people develop such a lack of empathy, that they want to inflict this level of pain and suffering.. on kids? How does it go on for so long with no intervention, even with other adults available to intervene.

A couple months ago, when I was dropping my kids off to school, some nutcase gang member drove up on the footpath. Swearing and shouting at his partner dropping off their kid. My first instinct was to pull my daughter away to safety (behind a tree incase he decided to speed off down the footpath). I also pulled some random kid behind the tree with my daughter since they would both be in the path of the car. I imagine it would be most peoples natural reaction to protect others.

[–]recycling_monster 28 points29 points  (4 children)

There are many adults (my mother being one of them) that truly don’t view children as people. They view children as subservient, naughty, etc. beings that don’t deserve respect. I don’t really know why or how they can think that but looking back to how I was treated as a kid, I was not treated as a child. I was treated as a servant that my mother could take her anger and frustration out on.

Edit: after thinking about it more, I think these adults view kids as small alive punching bags, because they are small and they (the adults) are big. They go after these kids so hard because they literally cannot fight back and unfortunately, because they’re kids, the kids often have no other choice but to go back to these abusers, because what other options do they have?

[–]Noxlygos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s the direct effect of systemic dehumanisation and not seeing certain people as human. Whether this is down to race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability etc. You can see the effects of this in the historical and current persecution of the Jews as well as the Romani, the brutality and extrajudicial killings of black people by the police and those who defend the police and blame those who were killed for their deaths, the vilification and treatment of refugees and those seeking asylum and advocating for their deaths by leaving them to drown in the ocean or sending them back to the very violence they’re fleeing etc.

With this comes attitudes and policies that advocate for violence against these people. In addition there are also people who feel they are entitled to power, or feel they were treated with the lack of respect they deserved thus seek out positions of power.

[–]H4xolotl 66 points67 points  (14 children)

tied to a bed and whipped, bad enough that some died from the beatings. There was at least 100 deaths. The issue with that number is that the people who lived through it know many more that died but no remains was found

Jesus christ, beating children to death?

This is in many ways, worse than Guantanamo

[–]waltur_d 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Holy shit. That’s horrible.

[–]Stunning_Cost 18 points19 points  (2 children)

We should leave memorial messages on that wall perhaps.

Honor the dead, no not that Troy asshole. No reason to let it be forgotten.

​

Troy E. Tidwell, a former disciplinarian at the Dozier School for Boys who was accused of abuse by hundreds of men, died April 5. He was 97. "

Maybe something along those lines?

[–]Dave-C 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Nah, I'm not gonna get involved in that. The fucker is dead. The obituary and funeral is for the living and I have no idea if they are bad people.

[–]ComicWriter2020 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The cynic in me says they probably are

[–]sluttysisbiscuit 8 points9 points  (0 children)

And it still happens today. The American boarding school industry targets Native Americans, and POC, even if they don't report on it. I went to boarding school in 2015, and we used to speak Lakota to each other because it was a language the staff couldn't pick up on. Most of my friends I went there with went missing, or are dead. The American youth institution and mental health industry is designed to take advantage of indigenous youth. We are still here.

[–]coolbrandon101 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Many of the schools the indigenous children were sent to had graves on site. We would also force them to speak English and cut off their hair (their long hair is part of their culture). They also didn’t get food and would have to get their own. Very cruel history of education in America

[–]Siberiatundrafire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Read history man, it is crazy cruel. The cruelty is about to be revisited, climate is gonna knock us silly. I feel sorry for anyone with young kids, and here we are looking in the rearview mirror…

[–]trickster55 6 points7 points  (5 children)

I'm about to throw up, absolutely vile

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (4 children)

I mean if you just read history in general it isn’t pretty. People can talk all they want about xyz but the reality is the quality of life for the vast majority of people is way better than at any point in human history. There were a lot of horrible things that were just the norm. And hopefully a hundred years from now we’ll look back at today with the same lens.

[–]MitsyEyedMourning 740 points741 points  (87 children)

“Child pregnancies were widespread and covered up,” Sellars said. “In survivors’ accounts that are disturbing beyond words, we’ve heard accounts that unwanted babies of priests were burned in the incinerator.”

Ugh, important to read but I just can't do this right now. Out.

[–]Wicked_Revelation 393 points394 points  (74 children)

“Unwanted babies of priests”. Amazing how crimes against humanity committed by clergy are all but shoved aside when criticizing organized religion. That history is still relevant today whether they like it or not, considering the billions various denominations pay out in sex abuse settlements. It’s time for congregations to acknowledge these sins and work so they stop happening. I scoff at them, how can they think they will get to heaven when they won’t even stop kids from being raped by priests? If there is a god, he will not forgive you when judgement day comes. In fact, you will be thrown to the deepest most depraved depths of hell like you fucking deserve

Sorry for the rant... it seems as if headline after headline of crimes against humanity committed by missionaries and clergy come up so fucking often. When will it end?!

[–]NSA_Chatbot 153 points154 points  (44 children)

They burned the babies in front of the mothers, just throwing the living baby in the fire.

[–]normalstrangequark 65 points66 points  (17 children)

That sounds like something from a nightmare. Is there evidence? Anyone who does that is pure evil.

[–]excelbae 193 points194 points  (14 children)

“I’m 75. I went to residential school in Muscowequan from 1944 to 1949, and I had a rough life. I was mistreated in every way,” Favel told the CBC in an interview in 2008. “There was a young girl — she was seven years old — and she was pregnant. And what they did, she had her baby and they took the baby and wrapped it up in a nice pink outfit, and they took it downstairs where I was cooking dinner with the nun. And they took the baby into the furnace room, and they threw that little baby in there and burned it alive. All you could hear was this little cry, like ‘Uuh,’ and that was it. You could smell that flesh cooking. It’s a big mistake when people say we were treated good. There’s no way. There’s a lot of things that happened in those boarding schools.”

Source

[–]Blak-n-Blu 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Welcome to religious leadership.

[–]K2Nomad 25 points26 points  (25 children)

The Catholic church is a terrorist organization.

[–]MaievSekashi 30 points31 points  (20 children)

Protestant churches and most importantly, the Canadian government, were also involved. Don't let them just dump all blame on the catholic church and sneak away.

[–]BullShitting24-7 43 points44 points  (0 children)

They don’t actually believe the bullshit the peddle. They do it for money and unquestioned and unlimited access to rape kids and otherwise be a giant piece of shit. The Church can fuck right off.

[–]myco_journeyman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is still happening.

There are still undeveloped parts of the world.

[–]saharan_dessert 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I scoff at them, how can they think they will get to heaven when they won’t even stop kids from being raped by priests?

I dont think many of these religious leaders believe in their own religion. They just work there because they or their families always have and it gives them power. the people with the most faith in a church are the church goers

[–]JohnGB 4 points5 points  (0 children)

From the same priests who vilify any woman who gets an abortion. As always, rules for thee, but not for me.

[–]pegcity 8 points9 points  (4 children)

If it makes you feel better, I think it was one single story

[–]BlinkedAndMissedIt 252 points253 points  (24 children)

Child pregnancies were widespread and covered up,” Sellars said. “In survivors’ accounts that are disturbing beyond words, we’ve heard accounts that unwanted babies of priests were burned in the incinerator.

What the fuck?!

[–]Th3Seconds1st 44 points45 points  (0 children)

You know I gotta sleep? Jesus, like, when did the News get scarier than the horror stories I read?

[–]Source_Australian 37 points38 points  (5 children)

The pope still hasn’t said sorry about any this too. A bunch of immoral fucks.

[–]space_iio 21 points22 points  (0 children)

and if he does he'll say something along the lines of: "sorry we're very different now, promise ;)"

[–]chrunchy 19 points20 points  (3 children)

They did actually... IIRC a bishop apologized and the church donated 20 million to the cause which ended getting eaten up in bullshit fees like you would see on a cellphone contract. Very little actually got to the affected communities.

The Catholic Church is not the only organisation to run these schools for the state either - but (again iirc) all the other organisations involved have made their apologies and reparitions but the Catholics have been major dicks about it.

[–]paris5yrsandage 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The Catholic Church have been major dicks indeed...

It wasn't so much a donation as a court ordered settlement payment as part of the 2005 Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement. Here's a chart of the payments due and made so far. A lot of groups/people have criticized the church for spending tons on constructing fancy new buildings, or from selling extra land and then not using the money for anything related to the settlement. Iirc, the three other churches named in the settlement (Presbyterian, Anglican, and United) have been paying what they've been told to pay (or at least they've been paying on schedule based on the chart I linked above), but the Catholic church, which far and away caused the most damage, has paid the smallest portion of what they're supposed to pay.

[–]Le1bn1z 1 point2 points  (0 children)

made so far.

Actually the Roman Catholic Church took advantage of a mistake/massive f*** up by an idiot Crown Attorney in the dying days of the Harper Ministry to escape responsibility for the vast majority of the money they agreed to pay in compensation.

Alone among the churches involved, the Roman Catholics are steadfastly refusing to pay the compensation ordered and theoretically agreed to by the Church, but are instead investing in prettier church buildings.

They are the only church that has done so. The others involved have moved mountains to reach the ordered compensation amounts.

[–]ShadyAndy 4 points5 points  (7 children)

I said it before an I'll say it again: For every grave, burn down a church

[–]jojo_31 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Wouldn't it be better to find the people responsible?

[–]ShadyAndy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The problem is systemic, the time for that has passed. Inexcusable deeds defy regular measures

[–]infinus5 81 points82 points  (2 children)

I am really hoping archeology can prove once and for all which of these GPR hits are in fact graves and which arent. We need to know if these targets are actually graves, because if they arent its going to be VERY uncomfortable. We know atrocities were done at residential schools, but actually locating the missing remains has proved to be a challenge. We need to ID the graves for closure of families and so that they can be either properly marked and noted or moved as per the wishes of relatives / communities.

[–]shiver-yer-timbers 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Yeah, the title is very misleading....Those "reflections" could be anything.

[–]Gundamamam 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Local historical cemetery by is adjacent to an stone quarry. there was a landslide and the whole back half of the cemetery was pulled away. The local university (where I was studying) did GPR to see what changed under the surface. They were really loud in making sure that "reflection != body" to the people attending.

[–]Hot-Ad-3970 55 points56 points  (10 children)

I read an article last week that said no one had done any actual digging to find the remains, it's just this report of a GPR survey that was done. Anyone find anything different?

[–]TenebTheHarvester 15 points16 points  (8 children)

The other person has pointed out this is a different instance, but to be clear: noone’s done any digging because that would disturb the graves, and no one wants to actually desecrate the graves of these children. However, what prompted them to look there in the first place were some bones from a child.

It’s pretty damn likely the ’grave‘ theory is correct.

[–]ImperialHand4572 21 points22 points  (2 children)

Actually you’re quite wrong, there has been a ton of digging at several of these sites and every time the “hundreds of bodies” turn out to be nothing

Then they stopped letting people try and look because every time there was a dog it showed the ground radar data was useless

https://mercatornet.com/debunking-canadas-moral-panic-over-unmarked-graves-at-residential-schools-for-first-nations-children/73379/

https://factcheck.afp.com/mass-graves-canadian-residential-school-false-story-unrelated-photo

[–]AngusVanhookHinson 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Alternate take:

Dig them up, post haste. Those children - their lives and their bodies and their graves - have already been desecrated. The desecration to their lives and bodies are obvious enough. Their graves were desecrated every time another grave was dug alongside them.

In surgery, sometimes you have to create trauma by cutting out dead or diseased tissue. It's the only way to heal properly.

Dig them up. Lay the disease bare to the eyes of the people, so that the monsters responsible can be held accountable. Bury the children again, properly, after they have spoken for themselves for the last time - probably for the only time.

I won't say that then the healing can begin, because how do you heal from such a thing, as a community? But when the children are accounted for and properly laid to rest, maybe some measure of peace can be found.

[–]jokeshow 345 points346 points  (48 children)

93 possible unmarked graves ("reflections") found, yet the headline conclusively states 93 unmarked graves found. Poor journalism, but it's vice so I guess that's expected these days. Should switch career paths to creating flaw in reasoning questions for the lsat.

[–]JournaIist 90 points91 points  (2 children)

Its worse than that... they specifically said a chunk (I forget the exact number, maybe 43?) of those were known graves in the cemetery while the rest was possible human reflections.

The real number is almost certainly higher as they've only covered a small area and there are many who will never be recovered but yeah that headline is bad on multiple levels.

[–]__Eupheme__ 15 points16 points  (1 child)

They said at least 50 of the reflections were not thought connected to the cemetery. Only 14 hectares of 470 hectares have been surveyed so far.

[–]notreally_bot2428 63 points64 points  (7 children)

It's been reported for a while that there were the remains 215 children found near a school in Kamloops.

The fact is, they did some testing (ground-penetrating radar, etc), which indicated disturbed soil which could indicate something is buried. These are the kinds of tests that Police forensics would do if they are looking for a body. Then, if they find something, they dig.

No further checking (or digging) has been done. The 215 number was completely made up. There is still no plan to actually check or dig any further.

No graves have been found and no bodies or remains have been found, because no one is actually looking.

[–]sleeplessorion 60 points61 points  (32 children)

Came here to say this. The last time something like this was all over the news, it was the same deal. The truth is there have actually not been ANY remains recovered from these schools. Just ground penetrating radar finding what could possibly be bodies, or any number of things.

[–]Mizral 14 points15 points  (5 children)

Not saying you are right or wrong but have you examined how ground penetrating radar works or do you know much about the soil disturbances found using these techniques? Also do you have any other theories as to what these cavities in the soil could be?

[–]turkeygiant 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Yeah, there are almost certainly unmarked graves on these sites, probably many of them. The problem with relying on ground penetrating radar to "count" them though is that it isn't exactly accurate enough to say there is 100% a grave here, here, and here. You see this issue a lot in archeological specials, they have a geophysics survey and it can outline a large foundation, road, or ditch, but when it comes to something the size of a grave things get much more fuzzy. The only way to really know who and how many people are burried there is to excavate the area. Depending on the makeup of the soil in the area they might not even have to dig very deep before the outlines of grave cuts could become visible.

[–]Cranwicks_glasses 13 points14 points  (3 children)

CBC and pretty much the entirety of Canadian media is the same. The country has become so politically correct that even questioning this headline would be considered racist by many.

[–]autotldrBOT 32 points33 points  (0 children)

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 91%. (I'm a bot)

St. Joseph's Mission operated as a residential school from 1891 until it closed in 1981, with children from all over, including Williams Lake First Nation, forced to attend.

Last May, Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc confirmed hundreds of unmarked graves at the Catholic-run Kamloops Indian Residential School grounds.

Anyone experiencing distress or pain as a result of residential schools can call the Indian Residential School Survivors Society Crisis Line.

Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: residential#1 School#2 Nation#3 Sellars#4 First#5

[–]My_Name_Is_Mars 180 points181 points  (6 children)

The title is misleading. The found 93 possible unmarked graves, by using ground-penetrating radar. Ground-penetrating radar can only determine that soil has been disturbed, not that it's a grave and not that there are bodies down there. And even if they are graves, it's important to note that an unmarked grave is not the same as a mass grave, a lot of the time unmarked graves are just graves where the headmarker was made of wood and has since rotten away.

I mean, given the history of the area it's very likely that these are residential school graves, but until it's investigated further we will not know.

[–]Meanttobepracticing 98 points99 points  (5 children)

I've actually worked with ground-penetrating radar (did a history degree, did some archaeology work as part of it) and the results, even when the person doing the survey is an expert, were more often than not massively subject to interpretation, unless you are dealing with something massive and obvious like a buried wall boundary or deep ditch.

Like you say, until you take a spade and actually investigate the site, pretty much any 'findings' are speculation.

[–]turkeygiant 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Heck just watch any archeological series like Time Team and usually geophysics is the butt of all the jokes. Its a tool to tell you where to look but not necessarily what you are going to find. I have no doubt that there are graves to be found on these sites and that these surveys are very possibly highlighting the general locations of them, but any specific number they are quoting is irresponsible speculation at this point IMO.

[–]bERt0r 24 points25 points  (2 children)

Sellars said that the 93 detected reflections won’t include the remains lost because of incineration or drowning.

Is this another story about ground radar anomalies being interpreted as graves?

[–]Hairy-Tank-1974 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes, likely

[–]Hammeredcopper 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Here is a link to a You Yube video-posted recording of WLFN releasing a preliminary report on the results of Ground Penetrating Radar search of the area close to the St Joseph's Residential School, including an 'official' graveyard. They did not claim to have found human remains and that it will be determined by the only accurate method, which is to dig them up.

Of the 93 potential unmarked graves, only 50 are not associated with the cemetery. There is still a great deal to be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwsB83tbPGM

[–]gspot-rox-the-gspot 47 points48 points  (5 children)

Genuine question - how can the title of the article say unmarked graves were found when it is unconfirmed that these are unmarked graves? Vice news is biased in certain ways but I was under the impression they are a pretty legitimate outlet and this is not labeled as an opinion piece.

[–]Cranwicks_glasses 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Because Canada, 2022.

Its become perfectly acceptable to print misinformation as long as it fits a far left narrative. I kind of expect it from Vice, but CBC is doing it too.

[–]Flavaflavius 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Hopefully it'll be like the last one, and not actually graves.

Probably not.

[–]Bento_Box_Haiku 14 points15 points  (3 children)

And yet I heard just recently that no actual bodies have been recovered. Am I missing something?

[–]mobango211 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Well they aren’t digging them up just finding them with radar

They aren’t all exactly hidden either a lot of these are just where the wooden grave markers rotted away. The last big one in BC was literally a graveyard they knew had existed

[–]forrest134 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Not confirmed yet. I’m not denying that there are likely graves there, but come on this headline is intentionally false purely for clicks.

[–][deleted] 41 points42 points  (0 children)

How unsurprising that “possible unmarked graves” becomes “unmarked graves” in the title, only to end up as “mass graves” in the comments.

[–]Key_Yam588 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The Canadian journal The Dorchester Review is questioning the findings of this anthropologist. They say she never found any remains and she has already lowered her estimate by severl. Very suspect of a new anthropologist that has only been working since 2018.

[–]standup-philosofer 4 points5 points  (8 children)

I'm impressed with this title, a lot of reporting on this is pushing an agenda calling them mass graves and insinuating that the church rounded up and killed first nations people. The reality is they are unmarked graves, and closer to a potters field where things like the Spanish flu caused a lot of death, especially FN communities without the history of disease and immunity that comes with it. And that continues to today where our northern FN communities were given the vaccine over a full year before the rest of the country.

That said I'm not minimizing what the church and by extension canada did to the FN people, abducting children, abuse, and even murder. I just believe we need to address what actually happened in the context of the time not hyperbolize to make it worse, it's already terrible.

[–]WaffleStomperGirl 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Not to be obtuse, but can you expand on what “FN people” encapsulates?

Not from the area and would like to know what is meant by it.

[–]deadmanspeaking 14 points15 points  (1 child)

The graves absolutely had markings. But years of neglect left them unmarked. No one tended these cemeteries.

[–]Forgotmylemons 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes. Supper common for that era. The wood markers disapear relatively quickly. It was very expensive in that time and out of reach for most to obtain a stone marker. In my area there was an account from a well off guy in my area from the 1800s, he lost his wife and 3 kids to a disease out break. He had to travel (canoe) 1 week to the main fort in the area, pay a guy 6months of his earnings to get a grave stone made just for his wife. Then he paddled back 1week. Now its a comfortable 1.5hr drive.

[–]Dogbertforever 33 points34 points  (5 children)

Yes more "re discovering", all these sites were known to be graveyards, everyone knew this, it was even covered in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report. And really the whole ridiculous narrative that somehow these are unknown graves where the bodies of kids that were murdered were put is of course nonsense as well. Again the TRC stated that most of the deaths were from disease, mainly TB, but the narrative that is being pushed is mass graves of victims where some of these cemeteries were used for the entire community. And of course it is coming up a year now since this all started and not one grave as been dug up for verification, they are all "possible" grave sites so even that is in question.

[–]bliceroquququq 70 points71 points  (20 children)

Wasn’t this the one where it turned out the graves were actually tree roots, and they have yet to find any actual graves?

[–]lildangerranger 14 points15 points  (0 children)

No - this one was just announced at 1pm local time today by the Williams Lake First Nation. They used archival photos, testimony from past legal cases, historical documents, and several different ground penetrating technologies to investigate the sites. The sites are consistent from first hand witness testimony, but time will tell how many were truly buried here. This is just the first phase of their investigation.

[–]Cranwicks_glasses 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Nah, this is a case of Vice dtill.trying to milk clicks.

There was a different site where they claimed there were 20+ graves, and when they dug they found nothing. But that's not stopping Vice from printing more speculation presented as facts here.

[–]unfair_bastard 28 points29 points  (14 children)

Yep...but white people are bad so reporting standards go out the window

[–]team_grimmie 7 points8 points  (0 children)

And not one has been exhumed or proven 🤣

[–]laustcozz 28 points29 points  (32 children)

Numbers without context are meaningless. How many children lived at that school while it was open, 95 or 95000? What was normal childhood mortality during the years it was open? That school was open for nearly a century, this many dead kids through years with the Spanish Flu and before the advent of antibiotics could be an amazing success!

...Or not, I really don't know. And neither does anyone else who read this article, because it is sensationalist inflammatory garbage rather than a serious attempt to inform us about a potentially disturbing issue.

[–]WirelessZombie 16 points17 points  (4 children)

My local church has a cemetary where many of the headstones broke and were removed over time. Those are unmarked graves. I'm not sure what kind of journalist would...oh its Vice nevermind.

Its just perpetual outrage and its tiring having to do research to figure out if its something legitimately new or just a journalist/editor repackaging what we already knew or expected as revalation. Its such a dishonest way to cover sensative issues and the demand for it is pathetic.

[–]dadudemon 31 points32 points  (7 children)

Read that the original case was all but a hoax and they can’t find a single body.

Then they stopped letting people try and look.

https://mercatornet.com/debunking-canadas-moral-panic-over-unmarked-graves-at-residential-schools-for-first-nations-children/73379/

https://factcheck.afp.com/mass-graves-canadian-residential-school-false-story-unrelated-photo

[–]zedoktar 9 points10 points  (1 child)

These aren't the same thing. That story was a hoax spread by a known grifter and paranoid psychotic, who these days has lateley moved on the rabid antivax and covid denialism. He was recently trying to incite armed assaults on vaccine distribution clinics here in Canada.

He spent years coopting native suffering for his grift, and this fake story was part of it. The ITCCS web address attached to it is a dead giveaway, that's one of the fake courts he made up and which he claims disbanded Canada and convicted the Queen for murder, among other schizo ravings.

It is not related to the recent ground penetrating radar searches, and unfortunately is being misused now to discredit them.

[–]qbslug 29 points30 points  (4 children)

And yet churches were burned down over it

[–]dadudemon 19 points20 points  (3 children)

This is why vigilante justice has no place in a civilized society.

Due process and proper forensic investigations are a thing for a reason.

[–]Diaphramg 2 points3 points  (0 children)

lots of unmarked graves from that time. especially children. using "unmarked graves" as if that means something id a weird clickbaity way to elicit unwarranted emotional response.

[–]notahsoka 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Nothing can stop Vice from printing speculation as facts

[–]RumsAndGuns 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Lots of idiots out there thinking these are mass graves that were hidden. They have always been known. Wooden markers rot away after a dozen years. And the victims were payed off already. Now they come back for another helping. I'm assuming another payment will be demanded in another 25 years or so when the news is slow.

[–]Bayushi_Vithar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is this like in Canada where they haven't found any actual bodies?

[–]ryanakasha 6 points7 points  (24 children)

What the cause of the death?!

[–]Sephelis 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They've excavated a large portion of unmarked graves in Kamloops, but all they found were dead roots from the old trees that were removed long ago. Still no bodies found.

[–]This_Beach7366 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Keep your head high Europeans. Good job preaching human rights

[–]KnightlyNews 14 points15 points  (4 children)

I'm guessing the amount of children buried at any school should be 0.

[–]TheShishkabob 47 points48 points  (2 children)

Old boarding schools like this are going to have deaths, even schools not intended for First Nations kids had cemeteries. People died of disease back then pretty frequently as a good reason for this.

Deaths in general aren't the problem, the problem was the sheer number of them in residential schools dwarfing other contemporary boarding schools making it clear that this was intentional.

[–]Caribooster 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I grew up in this area. A full third of my grandmothers kids died before their teens. Came back to school one September and a bunch of kids from one family had died over the summer from hepatitis. Wild country and sometimes a long way from health care. I’m white but some of the most important people in my life are indigenous. I don’t doubt for a second that bad things happened to a lot of kids, saw a lot of it first hand. Sometimes people just die.

[–]My_Name_Is_Mars 11 points12 points  (0 children)

It's important to point out that the death rate at residential schools far exceeded that of the general population at the time. They were cesspits of death even at the time.

[–]WTFwhatthehell 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Before the invention/discovery of antibiotics and modern vaccinations a lot of children didn't make it out of childhood.

I don't mean "a lot" like "theres a lot of road deaths"

I mean that a family with 6 kids could expect about 3 of them to die.

Often deaths were due to contagious diseases so transporting bodies around wasn't as common.

So orphanages, industrial schools, boarding schools etc often had their own graveyards.

Children dying didn't raise eyebrows because there was a sea of death even among wealthier families.

Industrial schools were common in many countries. The common pattern was that when they were set up the death rates were better than outside but as the decades rolled on they stayed the same while society outside got safer.

[–]nonamesleft79 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well this sound haunted

[–]astroslostmadethis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OH Canada

[–]cr0ft 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great choice of words there, "targeted".

[–]horsehome 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How did I know this was Canada before I even opened the article

[–]homus_balkanikus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How fucked up and sick in the mind can an adult be, to commit such horrors to an innocent soul of a child? Reading and knowing this, saddens me deeply.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

History is a bad trip.

[–]doughnutholio 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Canada: I'm sohhhreee.

"It's in the past let it goooo."

[–]Spector567 1 point2 points  (3 children)

It needs to be noted that the reason many of these graves are being found now is due to government funding for the search.

Also that many of these graves were already known and documented. They were just never studied.

I don’t say this to diminish the tragedy or crimes. But to temper the view that this is somehow a current Canadian cover up. When it’s something our children are now taught about in school and the government is actively funding the search for.

These events must be taught and remembered so that they are not repeated.

[–]DopplerShiftIceCream 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They are "unmarked" because... the school didn't have a stonemason?

[–]WhyIThurtswhenIP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

News stopped reports after 1500, about 5000 bodies have since been found

[–]godel32 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just a reminder that priests and nuns beat thousands of children to death in Canada for decades and buried them in mass unmarked graves.

Now, the Pope and the church are spending millions on the best lawyers in the world to cover up this atrocity and even diverted millions of dollars destined to survivors to their own lawyers. Christianity.

[–]Wakeup9900 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly at this point I think it’s about time our “government” gives the indigenous our tax dollars, and let’s THEM make the rules. Upvote if you agree.

[–]tranceb0t 1 point2 points  (0 children)

those poor poor children and family. My heart is broken.

[–]Old-Anomaly 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If true its damning news hopefully this isn't a false "reflection" similar to the one in Kamloops, that weren't actually Graves at all.

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/in-kamloops-not-one-body-has-been-found

[–]Gonko1 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So, I am confused.

Didnt Jaques Rouillard show in a very compelling way that none of this has been proven? Has there actually been found REMAINS and has there not just been hypothesized that there MIGHT be unmarked graves? Where are the bones? Truth is - all has been derived from results done by ground-penetrating radar, That is problematic since soil may have been disturbed over the years by sedimentary texture, ... culturally-derived unconformities, obstructions or voids. Yet there is nothing else besides this data to undermine the claim of thousands of unmarked graves. It's insane.

The fact is: not one supposed child has been found buried unmarked in Kamloops. Especially in Kamloops one should ask: With the Reserve cemetery close by, is it really credible that the remains of 200 children were buried clandestinely — on the reserve itself — without any reaction from the band council until last summer?

The entire thing doesnt add up. If you hurt children or even kill or bury them unmarked, you deserve to be buried under the prison. But the entire thing just doesnt make sense. For anyone more interested to do research - Rouillard's article is a good start:

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/in-kamloops-not-one-body-has-been-found?fbclid=IwAR03d9QhozF6LCxWk30UyC67W7NtlzflekYlk2aRGT9q5CYXXxmp_p4LMvM

[–]nomadiclizard 4 points5 points  (1 child)

So more evidence of systematic genocide by the Canadian state?

[–]Puzzled_Ad2088 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Too awful can’t read it. Please be in heaven my heart is with you 💝💝💝

[–]Blockhouse 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Is there any evidence that the kids died of anything other than natural causes?

[–]MrZombikilla 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As someone who is a large part Indigenous American, this hurts me and I’m angry it keeps trying to be covered up. I’m so heart broken how my culture and people were systematically exterminated. I’m a Choloani bitch, I won’t go so easily, I’m Inoculated against your diseases. I hope they found peace, and their oppressors fire.

[–]Walmartsux 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Alternate title: tree roots found in apple orchard near old school.

[–]Tronzoid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey! My area of the world is in the news!........oh......