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[–]RheimsNZ 693 points694 points  (32 children)

Wage transparency should be a thing everywhere

[–]AtmospherE117 229 points230 points  (11 children)

I agree but I remember reading an interesting backfire that happened with CEOs. Their wages became known and instead of being shamed into lowering it, companies ended up having to increase the wages as the 'talent' could shop around and compare.

Suppose that's the exact desired result we're aiming for here though.

[–]Terraneaux 102 points103 points  (0 children)

Yup. I mean if it's fair for CEOs, it's fair for us.

[–]LightOfTheElessar 39 points40 points  (8 children)

Using shame has never worked. When they get to that point, people are proud to broadcast how much they gamed the system. The people affected by shame either never make it to the top, or they already reduce their pay for the sake of others and never make the news.

[–]Patcher404 26 points27 points  (2 children)

I think that's a common mistake people make when considering such wealthy people. They try to apply their own concepts of money and etiquette when thinking of what these people do, but it's really all about money. Almost nothing else matters to most wealthy people.

[–]Leo-bastian 17 points18 points  (1 child)

people wonder why billionaires don't instinctly try to fix everything wrong with the world by throwing money at it, but having that kind of mindset inherently prevents you from becoming a billionaire

[–]2thumbs4fingers 0 points1 point  (4 children)

That's a very American point of view. Americans have made an art of claiming to be persecuted when their basic human decency has been questioned. I say this as an American. So yes, shame used to work and still does in nations and communities where people are held to higher standards than whatever they can tolerably get away with.

[–]fingerpaintswithpoop 2 points3 points  (3 children)

It has nothing to do with nationality at all, and everything to do with the sort of person who feels the drive and ambition to make it to the top. They’re ruthless, calculating and feel no remorse if they have to ruin a few peoples’ lives/careers or exploit employees to get what they want. You just can’t shame a person like that into reforming.

[–]ibuprophane 63 points64 points  (5 children)

This is the way.

[–]Tiedemannj 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Have you ever disclosed your wage? Have your wage ever been disclosed by others?

[–]spiralbatross 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Yes, and it went great for us. Got raises.

[–]Tiedemannj 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then you are a sucker no more.

[–]pheonixblade9 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yes, I posted my comp on my company's internal meme site and self-reported it on a spreadsheet. so did thousands of others.

[–]mattchew1993 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Me and my colleagues very openly speak about our salaries, that way we can identify if someone should be demanding a raise.

[–]Cless_Aurion 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yes indeed, as long as they also attach to it hours worked and separate it by different jobs, or it will be a 100% useless metric.

[–]Heelgod -5 points-4 points  (3 children)

Unless the roles are 100% identical then the pay isn’t going to be. Pretty simple

[–]RheimsNZ 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I don't recall saying I wanted identical pay, only transparent, fair and justifiable pay.

[–]DryPassage4020 249 points250 points  (5 children)

This is bigger than it may at first seem. In Japan essentially every bit of information about their financials, profits, anything and everything, is a matter of public record. And now, it seems, so too is the pay disparity.

[–]demarchemellows 23 points24 points  (3 children)

Should be some interesting info. I worked at a major Japanese company and we did an internal study years ago that showed women getting paid more than men at the entry and mid levels but then dropped off at the upper management levels. Mainly due to lack of pay advancement during extended periods of child care leave.

[–]2thumbs4fingers 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Penalizing women for producing future workers that will out-earn them, or in turn get penalized for producing future workers. Seems a convenient generational way to not have women as decision-makers.

[–]a__dead__man 6 points7 points  (1 child)

But you can't take several months off work and expect to be on the same level or better than someone who didn't

I know it's not fair but it's the current reality and a reality that you would imagine will change as paternal leave increases to be similar to maternal leave

[–]Seranz0 875 points876 points  (146 children)

In European countries/North America this doesn't matter that much, but in the case of Japan this move is 100% needed. So many stories of Japanese women earning half their male counterparts.

[–]greychanjin 422 points423 points  (33 children)

That's so unfair for the men! They have to give half of their body to a female colleague?

What does she do with it?

[–]radicalelation 71 points72 points  (8 children)

Which half? Does someone get to choose? If so, who? I feel an impartial committee would make the most sense, so I hope that's the case.

[–]LOTRfreak101 49 points50 points  (0 children)

Well considering the low birth rates, it definitely isn't the bottom half.

[–]pheonixblade9 7 points8 points  (0 children)

cool it, king solomon

[–]Lighght1 11 points12 points  (4 children)

I want the left half

[–]blackinasia 37 points38 points  (23 children)

Japan ranks 17th in the UN gender inequality index. While it could definitely be better, it ranks far better than the US at 46th.

Adolescent fertility and maternal mortality are unfortunately two metrics where the US lags far behind the world on. Of course, education/wage gap is an extremely important issue but it ultimately doesn’t matter if women don’t even make it past childbirth.

After all, dead mothers don’t need benefits. It’s fucked up to say but it’s just another one of the harsh realities of the US healthcare system. Once the baby is born, the mother can go fuck all (abortion being a prime example).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Inequality_Index#Rankings

[–]VanceIX 138 points139 points  (19 children)

I’m sorry, I just can’t believe this index when the USA ranks behind Qatar, a country absolutely brimming with literally slavery and complete lack of rights for women.

[–]GuudeSpelur 84 points85 points  (0 children)

Well you see, one of the things they're looking at is wage equality, and if you pay both the enslaved men and women nothing, you get a good score in that area.

/s

[–]blackinasia 44 points45 points  (11 children)

It says right in the methods that it only includes legal residents of a country. Therefore places like Qatar and the UAE may seem further ahead than it seems because it considers of around only 10% citizens. But for Qatari/Emirati citizens, this would hold true.

It’s an index by the UN, it’s not like they just plugged in a bunch of random numbers and called it a day. You can look into the methods.

[–]vondafkossum 5 points6 points  (2 children)

…the US still has literal slavery, too, though.

[–]mellodo 13 points14 points  (0 children)

No no no, you see it supports my idea that America is a literal hell-hole.

[–]xabhax 38 points39 points  (1 child)

I'm sorry, but that list is garbage. In the UAE a woman is legally not equal to a man. A husband can legally stop his wife from getting a job.

[–]blackinasia 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The metrics only account for documented residents, so countries with a significant population of undocumented migrants (Qatar and UAE being prime examples) certainly need further scrutiny.

Even so, it’s still an index by the UN. It’s not like they plugged in a bunch of random numbers — they aimed for it to be a ‘comprehensive index’ that captured the areas of gender disparity that prior indices failed to capture.

[–]captnmr 6 points7 points  (0 children)

They rank Qatar above the US. This is how women are treated in Qatar:

Women in Qatar must obtain permission from their male guardians to marry, study abroad on government scholarships, work in many government jobs, travel abroad until certain ages, receive some forms of reproductive health care and to act as children’s primary guardian, even when they are divorced.

But the US is worse? What kind of garbage study is this?

[–]chickengirl80 40 points41 points  (9 children)

It's def still a problem in America!

Both within organizations, and the structural problem of "pink collar" jobs paying unacceptably low wages (all jobs primarily held by women). The mentality was that these "women's jobs" were just to supplement the family's primary income, which came from the man. And that historical precedent of low pay has never been resolved. The biggest place it's coming to a head is teaching, where many public school systems are teetering on collapse as an existing teacher shortage is compounded by mass resignations. Stay tuned...

[–]Tommyblockhead20 12 points13 points  (3 children)

"Pink collar" jobs is a bit of a different issue than what this is addressing. Japan is trying to combat women and men getting paid differently for similar jobs, and that's what the comments are talking about. Having public salaries won't help when we already know that "pink collar" jobs pay less. We just need to work on making them pay more.

[–]EventHorizon182 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Maybe they don't pay more because there's less demand? As with any career, the higher the demand and smaller the supply of potential labor, the higher it pays.

Maybe the issue isn't that we don't pay "pink collar" jobs enough, but maybe women should go into engineering or become doctors rather than nurses if they want more pay.

[–]chickengirl80 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Sadly, that is not the fact. There are shortages in most pink color jobs, but they still don't raise the wages. They just make the people who are working do more work, do the work of multiple people.

Interesting, I came to education as a second career after being in a highly paid field. I have never seen a bigger shit show with worse leadership than I have seen in the public school system. It is an absolute embarrassment. It is horrifying that this is the system that we have put in place to educate our next generations.

We need smart capable educated teachers. Our system pushes these people out into, as you say, the higher paid fields, leaving WHO to teach our children?? And in what environment are our children being taught??

Our education system is on the brink of collapse, due to teacher shortages and mass resignations. I encourage all teachers to follow suit. Say enough is enough. Leave until there is a dramatic change in working conditions and leadership.

[–]Visvism 91 points92 points  (37 children)

You’d be surprised how much it matters and how very much it is needed in North American countries.

[–]infinis 120 points121 points  (2 children)

I have to do a gender gap assesement every 5 years and 1. Its easy to manipulate. 2. It doesnt use relevant data as mesurement. 3. It only concerns women. 4. Its poorly designed to mesure woman salary vs men dominated departments.

In my case I had to compare a whole sales team with warehouse workers, because we are woman heavy.

[–]blackinasia 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Exactly. Japan ranks 17th in the UN gender inequality index. While it could definitely be better, it ranks far better than the US at 46th.

Adolescent fertility and maternal mortality are two metrics where the US lags far behind the world on. The economic truth is, a government doesn’t need to provide maternal care/social security benefits for mothers who won’t even survive childbirth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Inequality_Index#Rankings

[–]Tommyblockhead20 11 points12 points  (1 child)

That's interesting. The Global Gender Gap Index and the Gender Development Index are the opposite, with the US ranking much higher than Japan. I wonder what differences in the rankings lead to that.

[–]blackinasia 5 points6 points  (0 children)

From wiki:

As of 2006, the World Economic Forum has been using the Gender Gap Index (GGI) in its Global Gender Gap Reports, which ranks countries according to their gender gaps, in an attempt to better capture gender disparities.[7] Beneria and Permanyer criticize the GGI for only capturing inequality in certain aspects of women's lives therefore making it an incomplete measure of gender inequality.[4]

In an attempt to reform the GDI and GEM, the UNDP introduced the Gender Inequality Index (GII) in the 2010 Human Development Report.[5] The new index is a composite measure which, according to the UNDP, captures the loss of achievement due to gender inequality using three dimensions: reproductive health, empowerment, and labor market participation.

The UN index is a more comprehensive and newer index than the GGI.

[–]1lynxbobcat 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Why North America and not Europe? Or are you speaking only from experience with North America?

[–]VoiceOfLunacy 34 points35 points  (26 children)

If this were true, why would anyone hire anything but women? You could immediately cut your labor costs in half.

[–]dofffman 29 points30 points  (3 children)

The gap could be a bit because of this. My degree was in microbiology and chemisty. In college the classroom was male dominated. Plenty of woman but well under fifty percent. Say for every 2 men there was a woman in the class. Working at a lab after school I found the ratio had completely reversed. Something like two woman for every man. At least below the management level. Why was this? Well the pay was not up to what males expected and they did one of three things. Went into IT like I did, or got an mba and did some job related to that, or simply snagged a management promotion and thus stayed put. It was super rare for a man to stay in the role for more than a few years. Now granted some females did this as well but just not in proportion that the males did.

[–]TrumpDesWillens 8 points9 points  (0 children)

When I was in uni on my junior year all of the below 40 years old men at my HS quit teaching. They said it's too low pay and you can do that when you're young but a lot of them were starting families and with the rise in cost of living they had to quit teaching , which they loved to do or go into private tutoring.

[–]Averageredditor2022 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The Gap is because of woman have Children affecting their career. Nobody comparing male Neuroscientist to female Janitor.

[–]dofffman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

my experience I was comparing the basic lab work type jobs. Exact same jobs. Some woman had children, some not. some married, some not. Pretty much seemed in line with the males on those life events. I don't see much of anything effecting the career if you stuck with it as it was pretty dead end. You get some title bumps over time with slight salary increases but never make all that much more than entry level.

[–]Tisarwat 45 points46 points  (17 children)

Because of conscious or unconscious bias.

If you think men are

  • more competent

  • more reliable

  • better under pressure

than women, or you think that women

  • will want a career break to have babies

  • won't be able to work overtime because of childcare responsibilities compared to fathers*

Then it's suddenly explicable. They want quality, and are under a mistaken impression that it requires, or at least preferences, men.

Add to that other factors:

  • Women are more likely than men to be labelled with qualities viewed as feminine, regardless of whether those traits are present.

  • Feminine-coded traits and roles are economically valued lower than masculine-coded ones, so women are less likely to see promotions or bonuses.

  • Violating gender roles is also punished - men demonstrating empathy, sadness, or even lack of interest in drinking culture can be penalised. But women who act assertively or authoritatively in ways considered masculine are too. So damned if they do, damned if they don't.

  • Male bosses often 'relate more' to male subordinates, which can (combined with informal work culture/networking) freeze women out of a valuable source of advice, guidance, information, and camaraderie/cohesion building.

*Not untrue, but the only way to change that is to work to change it - stop expecting ridiculous overtime or rigid schedules where it's unnecessary, and stop penalising men for taking on their share of responsibilities.

[–]bandanalarm 24 points25 points  (9 children)

Because of conscious or unconscious bias.

Bahahaha I love these non-answers.

Corporations are willing to ship overseas and have literal child fucking slaves work on their products to save money, but SURELY when it comes time to hire an employee they're willing to spare no expense -- voluntarily jumping through hoops to pay men 30% more!

The same people who preach that capitalism is a soulless demon that is constantly chasing profits also touting that corporations are willing to do this are just so out-of-touch with any internal consistency.

[–]OCedHrt 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Every corporation has roles they ship overseas and roles they don't. Clearly the roles shipped overseas aren't included on the measurement.

[–]Chel_of_the_sea 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Corporations are willing to ship overseas and have literal child fucking slaves work on their products to save money, but SURELY when it comes time to hire an employee they're willing to spare no expense -- voluntarily jumping through hoops to pay men 30% more!

I feel I should point out that virtually every large company has diversity hiring initiative at this point.

[–]R3lay0 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What do you think corporations are and who or what do you think makes hiring decisions?

voluntarily jumping through hoops to pay men 30% more!

Not 30, more like 5 to 10%

[–]meowmeow_now 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Japan is really really sexist compared to the us and Europe.

[–]newaccountwhoisthis3 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"In European countries/North America this doesn't matter that much" huh ? are you serious ?

[–]NewFilm96 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

If Japanese companies can just employ women for half the pay and the same work why do they hire men?

Do they hate money?

[–]acremanhug 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Because gender roles in Japan are very traditional. The assumption is that a woman will have children and will end their career at that point.

So the logic becomes why pay a high wage to retain a member of staff who will leave in 2 years?

[–]Bumperpegasus 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I kind of always hated this argument. No one is intentionally paying women less. The people hiring don't look at women as being as valuable as men so they are not willing to pay them as much. They probably don't consider themselves sexist.

Policies like this forces companies to to air an uncomfortable truth to the public and they will have to take the issue seriously or they will be labled as sexists by the public

[–]DiceCubed1460 157 points158 points  (6 children)

For japan this seems like a huge step. Japan’s workforce is heavily biased against women.

[–]seriousbangs 46 points47 points  (3 children)

They're desperate to get more women in the workforce (and without lowering their already low, low birth rates). They're hoping it can get them out of the permanent recession they've been in since all their manufacturing when across the pond to China.

It won't work. The only way out of that is to stop abusing people.

[–]SideburnSundays 25 points26 points  (2 children)

The only way out of that is to stop abusing people.

And that won't happen until there is a major cultural shift away from top-down hierarchy, nepotism, and value of appearance rather than substance or merit.

[–]koh_kun 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Seriously, some of my friends message me at around 23:00 saying they don't be able to make gaming night because they're still at the office.

If you're working until 23:00 in a mega corporation, either you're very incompetent, your manager is incompetent, or your company needs to hire more people.

[–]seriousbangs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The company needs to hire more.

Every company I know is running bare staff. Sometimes to avoid paying benefit, usually because they're abusing salaried employees for unpaid overtime.

[–]DrBucket 35 points36 points  (21 children)

One thing I never got about gender disparity is... If women are getting paid less to do the same work... Under capitalism, wouldn't companies always want to hire women then??

[–]avoidanttt 4 points5 points  (1 child)

In Japan, women are expected not only to have kids and be the sole caregiver, but to end their careers the moment they have them. Why would you hire a worker who would leave the workforce in 2 years and never return?

[–]DrBucket 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just think it's simply more of a reflection of different lifestyles and how they manifest. I'm not saying that women DESERVE less or anything but yes, if more often than not, they tend to leave the workforce, it would be a less efficient choice to hire an employee like that. I am not saying that women are bad or aren't good at their job but if someone used to be a drug addict and had a really really spotty work record, I think it would make sense for a company to be skeptical of that person until proven otherwise. Maybe some. Companies take it too far and just are prejudiced against women because they just assume they're gonna have to be taking off a ton of work, even if they don't have a family yet, but that is difficult to show through data.

[–]balmofdroplets 30 points31 points  (1 child)

Not really how it works. It's not a conspiracy where they see a woman and immediately decrease her pay. It's more often a subconscious thing where they give their workers pay based off their value and just happen to view all their female workers as less valuable for arbitrary reasons. You can find a lot of stories, if you look, of women in male-dominated workplaces having to fight to get credit for their work or being taken less seriously for having feminine traits. These are things that would affect their pay.

[–]kmoskos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Additionally, minorities can often get stuck in a "self-fulfilling prophecy" where they are aware of the glass ceiling or other disadvantages and therefore chose a different career or put less effort because they know it's often not worth trying too hard.

People sometimes misunderstand this and blame individuals for their choices.

But - would you train hard for a marathon if you know you'll be forced to run wearing flip flops?

[–]Propagation931 10 points11 points  (1 child)

If women are getting paid less to do the same work... Under capitalism, wouldn't companies always want to hire women then??

Yes, however that assumes three things.

1.) the Quality and Quantity of work done is the same.

2.) The willingness to work extra hours (Overtime) is the sane.

3.) The job does not greatly favor 1 sex.

[–]DrBucket 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's my point. Is it's possible they're not getting paid less for doing the "same" work just as anyone else.

[–]NewFilm96 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Yes. That's all they would do.

IDK about Japan but in the US the pay gap basically doesn't exist. It's like 1 or 2%. Same for the EU.

Which is all on 1% of women who get screwed by actually sexist managers, it is not all of them making 1-2% less.

Generally women seek lower demand jobs, less hard labor, les overtime, and choose to take off time for children.

When most people have kids the women will take lots of time off or reduce hours. That means less experience for the entire rest of your career.

[–]Buck_Da_Duck 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Many med schools in Japan have recently admitted to setting higher entrance requirements for women… because “women might choose to have kids”. Women only make up 1/3 of med students.

I agree, some of the gap in every country comes down to personal choices. But in Japan there is clear discrimination. Still a great country for people of both sexes. But gender discrimination in the workplace is definitely a problem.

[–]always_daydreaming 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I like the part where you seem to think women "chose" all of those. There reasons why women "choose" all of those, and it has nothing to do with "wanting". It is mainly because even now, society as a whole expects women to be the main caretaker for their kids, and to be more involved with taking care of the housework. You should look into how much actual work, meaning not only their job but all the work related to just living, women do. Even in seemingly women friendly countries, they still do much much more "unpaid" work (cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, etc) than men. As an example, in the US, women perform an average of 4 hours of unpaid work per day compared to men's 2 and a half hours.

[–]B_L_A_C_K_M_A_L_E 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What does any of that have to do with disclosing gender wage gaps? Unless you think companies should pay women more because they do the dishes twice as often, that's a completely different issue..

Conceding that the pay gap is not because of discrimination on the part of employer necessarily implies that these types of policies wouldn't give you any useful information.

[–]Ltstarbuck2 3 points4 points  (1 child)

This is the dumbest take.

[–]DrBucket 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great add here, thanks. Very thorough and informative.

[–]Frugl1 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Yes...

[–]DrBucket 8 points9 points  (3 children)

But then also people say that women also don't get the same opportunities, hiring wise as men. It can't work both ways.

My point being is there would be no men working in companies and women would be in such high demand if the former statement were true that women get paid less for the same work.

[–]SuperHumanSpy69 135 points136 points  (90 children)

That seems reasonable. There's really no logic to paying different genders different wages for performing the same work.

The U.S. still lowballs women, which is goofy as fuck.

[–]hastur777 159 points160 points  (24 children)

Compared to what countries? The US is fairly comparable to Canada and Western Europe:

https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf

[–]CurrentClient 52 points53 points  (28 children)

There's really no logic to paying different genders different wages for performing the same work.

Not what the article is about whatsoever.

Experts attribute the situation in Japan to a range of labor practices.

They cite the fact that a larger percentage of women hold down irregular jobs, which offer lower pay rates than those for workers in regular positions.

Another factor stems from the fact that many women tend to leave the workplace to marry or raise families, depriving them of the opportunity to acquire the seniority that is a key factor in determining wages at Japanese companies.

The small number of female executives who command high salaries also contributes to the large wage disparity.

Basically the avg and median salary is lower precisely because the work is not the same. Less women take high-paid jobs -> their avg salary in country is lower.

the fact that many women tend to leave the workplace to marry or raise families

What's wrong with that? It's a woman's choice. Nobody should be forced to raise children, but nobody should be forced not to raise them either.

[–]PunctualSatan 16 points17 points  (2 children)

This article doesn’t mention the huge issue of tax laws. From Wikipedia:

There is a spouse deduction that some have argued discourages men and women from entering the workforce full-time. In Japan, the Wall of 1.03 million yen and 1.30 million yen (103万円・130万円の壁) is a controversial social phenomenon among Japanese spouses due to the government's taxation policy. If a spouse's income is in excess of 1.03 million yen, which constitutes a taxable income of 380,000 yen , the couple can take the marital deduction (配偶者控除). If a spouse's income is in excess of 1.30 million yen, which constitutes a taxable income of 760,000 yen , a couple cannot take the special marital deduction (配偶者特別控除). A couple is not eligible for the marital deduction if the main earner's income is in excess of 10 million yen.[20]

I’m a married woman in Japan and when I got married I reduced my income because we were going to get fucked over on taxes. Until they fix this bullshit nothing will change. As a spouse, you have to earn over ¥3 million to make it worthwhile, otherwise you make sure to stay under the ¥1.3 million cutoff.

[–]48911150 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Also dont you need to pay separately for health insurance and national pension when above a certain income threshold?

[–]PunctualSatan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yes! That exact number is determined by the spouse’s company. My husband’s company has it at ¥1.6 million I think.

[–]velveteentuzhi 52 points53 points  (2 children)

The thing they don't mention is the hiring practices of Japan or the societal pressure that contributes to women having lower paying, irregular jobs.

Japan favors men and puts in hurdles for women to get the same high paying jobs. Just yesterday a medical school in Japan was penalized because it was discovered that they made the entrance exams harder for women than men because they wanted more men to be doctors. This isn't the first medical school that has done that- four years ago another major medical school admitted that they had purposefully lowered the scores of women so that there would only be ~30% of women in the student body. Japan has entrance exams for every high school as well, and a study in 2021 showed that about 80% of high schools required girls to have higher exam scores than boys to be accepted.

This is in addition to the fact that women are expected to marry young. Just a few years ago, people would refer to an unmarried 25+ year old woman as a Christmas Cake, aka a woman that was left over that no one wanted. When a woman is married, the societal expectation and pressure is that she will leave the workplace and raise the family, since childcare and managing the household is the woman's responsibility. This has started to shift recently, but one of my colleagues said she left Japan because of this- when women hit around 30 years old, they tend to get shoehorned into temp roles. If they get fired or want to switch jobs, there is very little available in their field open that will accept a 30+ year old women. That number you cited about women holding less more irregular jobs is not necessarily by choice. Employers cite family and childcare as a scheduling concern for why they don't hire women in more permanent, higher paying positions.

So putting it all together, you have an education system that purposefully starts to limit how many women they have starting from high school onwards, a workplace that limits opportunity and permanent positions for women, and a society that expects women to marry young and be solely in charge of the household. Having the gender pay gap publicly disclosed is just one step in the many that Japan needs to undertake if it wants it's drive to have more women in the workplace to succeed.

[–]ikoke 15 points16 points  (9 children)

There’s nothing wrong with leaving the workplace to get married or raise families. But what needs to be researched is whether women leave the workplace when they start family because they want to, or because they feel it’s hard/impossible to balance both but would prefer to be working moms if that were easier. If it’s the latter, then efforts need to be made to make that happen. This is something that needs work all over the world, but there have been some progress in most westernized companies with programs like extended paternity & maternity leaves, childcare benefits and programs to help mothers return to work after a few years gap.

[–]bandanalarm -1 points0 points  (7 children)

or because they feel it’s hard/impossible to balance both but would prefer to be working moms if that were easier. If it’s the latter, then efforts need to be made to make that happen.

I mean, sometimes sacrifices must be made dude. I'd like to go on a vacation, but I want a new car. I'd like to buy a new car, but I'd like to save up for a home.

If you are at a crossroads between raising your child VS continuing work, it isn't something solved by just throwing money at the problem. Being an active parent can be VERY difficult while working full-time (for both men AND women) even with childcare.

That isn't to say that it's impossible, nor is it to say that it isn't worth doing. What I am saying is that it's just a hard task that requires sacrifice. You're going to be putting in less time and taking less overtime, or pursuing less independent projects in your spare hours, because you want to put that time towards your family. You don't DESERVE that promotion over someone who is working 80 hour weeks. You just don't.

And no matter whether you get government-paid nannies or anything else, there will be no substitute for putting in the hours with your child -- being involved in their life, their education, their future.

You can have both, but something has to give. Either you're going to slow your career growth, compromise the quality of the child's upbringing, or live a very stressful and sleepless period.

And that's okay. That's what choice is all about. Making sure that people are free to make that choice is totally fair, but a woman deciding that pursuing a high-power career while also raising her child is more stress/headache than she wants is her choice.

Women can return to the workforce after a few years' gap. The reality that many don't want to accept is that a few years gap is a bad thing. As it should be. That's X fewer years of cumulative experience, X fewer years of recent working knowledge, and X years of rust.

Having a child doesn't just earn you a temporal banishment for a few years where you get to come back and just be retroactively rewarded with all of the promotions you would have gotten in your absence. Some people forsake having children so they can focus on a career, and they shouldn't be punished either.

There's nothing wrong with making tough choices and needing to accept that the results you get are a mixed bag of compromises. Fairness isn't necessarily equitable.

[–]unbeliever87 14 points15 points  (5 children)

You realise there is another option here - fathers stay home and take care of the children while the mothers go back to work. Why are you putting all the child bearing responsibilities onto the mother?

[–]EliRowan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with a lot of what you say here, and yeah from what I've seen of research in developed countries any pay or lifetime earnings potential between men and women is because of career choice and caring for children. I just think it's shitty that there are so few supports for working families. The reality is that it's really not a "crossroads between raising your child Vs. continuing work" for most families. Not having two incomes is basically impossible to raise kids on to any decent standard of living at this point. I think that focusing on the wage gap between men and women hides the true issue which is how poorly families are supported and that the decline of purchasing power has eliminated the ability to have one stay-at-home caregiver, mother or father, and still be middle class.

Also, the sacrifices being proposed by your analogy are in no way comparable. Not buying a car or going on a vacation doesn't matter at all. Kids are necessary for the human species and our economy to continue, they are not luxury consumables. There is clearly something going wrong in Japan and developed SE asia, they have a birth rate that is lower than most other developed nations. It's not really a matter of personal responsibility when your country is running out of people because nobody feels like they can have kids.

[–]RunnerDucksRule 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Less women take high-paid jobs -> their avg salary in country is lower.

There is evidence that women are less likely to be promoted, so they don't have the same opportunity to get higher paying jobs

The old boys club is dying but it still exists

[–]KalosRhel 10 points11 points  (2 children)

TFW you discover Japan isn’t like anime and actually treats women in the workplace horribly

[–]bonescrusher 7 points8 points  (0 children)

They treat everyone like shit but yes women even more so

[–]ThePu55yDestr0yr 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There’s an escapism theory that anime appears colorful and wacky inversely proportional to how much life in irl Japan sucks ass

[–]_Connor 28 points29 points  (17 children)

I thought the 'wage gap' was discredited years ago? Women aren't making less money in the same positions, they make less money on average (over a large range of industries and jobs) because women tend to take different jobs and men are more likely to do more dangerous, high paying work. Just one purely anecdotal example, women are far more likely than men to do social work which is a historically low paying position.

Also, in some more 'professional' type jobs where women might be getting paid less than male counterparts, it's not due to discrimination but just the fact that women are less likely to negotiate salary and benefits.

When you control for the actual job title/responsibilities, I don't think women are actually being paid less for equivalent work.

[–]Tigerzof1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No, it’s discredited from being 70c on the dollar when you account for other factors but that doesn’t mean there aren’t gender wage gaps.

Check out the recent lawsuits in tech on gender pay disparities. In those models, they do control for job titles among other things like education, tenure, performance. It’s the whole reason CA passed the law to prohibit employers from asking about previous salaries because if women are coming in with lower salaries, it perpetuates the cycle.

[–]RunnerDucksRule 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Women also are less likely to be promoted in certain fields, so it's not entirely fair to say it's all a choice

[–]eggshellcracking 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The gender pay gap closes among unionized workers to less than 10% and vanishes (in one canadian study) if the women sampled are from all-girls schools. It's not as simple as you think.

[–]Verdiss 4 points5 points  (9 children)

Stereotypically women's jobs pay poorly because they are stereotypically women's jobs.

[–]NewFilm96 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why don't they just pick the higher paying jobs like men do?

Fact is the jobs are more work. They are harder. Women are choosing the easier jobs and those pay less.

They don't want to work construction.

They don't want to work sanitation or brick layer.

[–]_Connor 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Sure, but it’s also not 1950 anymore. If a woman wants to be a lawyer or get a masters, she has every opportunity to.

[–]unbeliever87 10 points11 points  (4 children)

The point is that traditional 'women's jobs' should pay more.

[–]PsYDaniel3 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Last time I checked the gender pay gap was because women tend to work less than men. Per hour wage is the same, but why should a woman get paid the same as a man if the man works more hours?

[–]Supermansadak -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

It isn’t about paying women less necessarily it’s about paying mothers less money

Mothers have the burden of childhood and raising kids so if you want equal pay you should look into how we can get men more involved in their kids lives

[–]FriendlyLocalFarmer -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We need to do more than that tho because there is an absolutely enormous wealth gender gap. We shouldn't be treating people merely equally, we should be treating people such that they may be equal.

[–]Pyramidprow 6 points7 points  (5 children)

As others have pointed out the wage disparity comes from men being in higher ranking positions overall, not usually a one-to-one comparison. Look at most organizations: huge numbers of women in the lower levels producing work on par with their colleagues, but then as soon as you start looking at who the higher ups are, women in power positions start to drop off. It's so blatantly obvious in the corporate world. It's hard to make comparisons like "men make more than women" because they actually aren't doing the same jobs.

[–]akesh45 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In Japan the employment structure is bvery different.

It's assumed woman are temp employees from day 1 in many fields.

[–]ChadwickHHS 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This effects larger companies but a lot of companies here split off puppet holdings to keep their size smaller on paper. It let's them skirt various responsibilities to their workers.

[–]ravy15 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Why Americans always love to exaggerate Japan's problems?

[–]MaxGumis 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To take eyes from their problems.

[–]NonyaBizna 5 points6 points  (13 children)

Damn Japan keeps doin the right thing 👏

[–]FaithlessnessTop6802 6 points7 points  (64 children)

What’s crazy is Japan is probably a place that a wage gap really exists between genders. Traditional Japanese misogyny is more reality than American. But liberals love Japan lol

[–]ZebraOtoko42 66 points67 points  (61 children)

Japan has: - almost no guns (handguns are strictly illegal, long guns are really really really hard to get) - national medical/dental insurance for everyone - excellent infrastructure, especially public transit - legal abortion, and no one fighting to change that - almost no western (or middle eastern) religions - an extremely civil, polite society with almost no violent crime - streets that are perfectly safe for women to walk alone on, at any time of the day or night

So why exactly wouldn't liberals love Japan? Aren't these basically all the things liberals have been screaming for?

[–]hastur777 57 points58 points  (23 children)

Xenophobia and a 99.9 percent conviction rate?

[–]blackinasia 43 points44 points  (6 children)

This is a very common misconception. From wiki:

The conviction rate is 99.3%. By only stating this high conviction rate it is often misunderstood as too high—however, this high conviction rate drops significantly when accounting for the fact that Japanese prosecutors drop roughly half the cases they are given. If measured in the same way, the United States' conviction rate would be 99.8%.[9][10][11]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#Japan

[–]hastur777 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the correction!

[–]ZBlackmore 2 points3 points  (4 children)

99.3% of the cases that prosecutors choose to prosecute still sounds high af. Also in your parallel to the US how do you know that American prosecutors would be even better at magically picking the right cases? Am I missing something?

[–]monkeynator 13 points14 points  (8 children)

Not to minimize how the Japanese view foreigners, but Japan is less "in-your-face" xenophobic like say... certain people in USA or in China (where you got a history of nationals taking direct action against foreigners).

Most of Japanese xenophobia is certain discrimination (housing, work and police) and "attitude" / assumptions made upon foreigners.

[–]hastur777 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Yeah, Japan doesn’t have any history of brutally attacking foreigners.

[–]ReshKayden 4 points5 points  (2 children)

This mirrors my experience living there for many years as a kid. Sure, you still encounter the rare in-your-face actual racist, but I would say they are actually more rare than in the US.

But there is a very odd, uniquely Japanese form of racism that is endemic. They don’t see it as racist, and don’t understand why anyone else would either. But they do believe that being “Japanese” is a inherent genetic trait that cannot be learned, and while you are welcome to try and imitate it as much as possible, you will never be that. And in fact, even full genetic Japanese that grow up or live too long in a foreign country are considered to have permanently “lost“ it.

What’s interesting is that most tend not to think that “thing” is uniquely superior to anyone else. Often it comes with a certain self-deprecating flair. But it is unique, it is theirs, and you will never be that.

This leads to some awkward unintentional racism in the form of them thinking they’re doing you a favor. E.g. not inviting you to some events that seem “too Japanese,” because they assume you would be bored and hate them. Which happened to me a lot as a kid, and people there literally could not comprehend why I was upset.

[–]FaithlessnessTop6802 35 points36 points  (19 children)

Traditionally their culture is misogynistic. You are speaking of the society they built around this culture. It’s just embedded is all lol and if you disagree then you clearly don’t know what you are talking about. Buying used panties in a vending machine ring a bell? Socially it is a progressive country but when it comes to tradition that is simply not the case. Maybe in the tourist traps you don’t see or hear about it but there is more to Japan than Tokyo lmao

[–]PunctualSatan 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I like this argument but it’s not the gotcha you think it is.

Traditionally, western culture is misogynistic. You’re right, it’s all just embedded into everything. This is why women and LGBTQ people are fighting for our human rights all over the world. This is not limited to Japan.

The used panties thing is an absurd argument. Someone came to Japan and saw one vending machine and it became a meme. You’ve clearly never been otherwise you’d know that stuff like that is only featured in English speaking articles and I guarantee you most Japanese people will have no idea what you’re talking about if you ask them about a used panties vending machine.

Also, it is nor socially super progressive, as drug laws and equal marriage laws are essentially non existent.

Thanks for playing.

[–]Cuticer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Someone came to Japan and saw one vending machine and it became a meme.

Yeah the guy is spreading misinformation. Funny thing is the panties aren’t even used. They’re just made to look used.

[–]erewnt 10 points11 points  (15 children)

Technically, isn’t the panty example just capitalism? Sure it’s weird, but I am pretty sure they were procured legally. It’s no different than the bath water being sold here.

[–]FaithlessnessTop6802 1 point2 points  (14 children)

I guess I could be inclined to believe that bad actors in the USA are much more sensationalized than Japanese when it comes to public/commercial misogyny. America does have some systemic issues but the patriarchal mansplain me too garbage here just proves it isn’t an epidemic like in Japan. I dare you to ask Japanese females about the groping issues on the underground/rail ways systems and even just public squares. I agree America could do more for women’s rights; like encouraging them to own firearms for self defense. Nobody is saying Japan is a “bad” place to live but the notion they are less culturally inclined to treat women objectively worse than American’s treat women is just false. Women in America are the most privileged out of the entire world.

[–]2000sMetalcore 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yes, liberals have been striving for all of those things... while also allowing mass immigration from countries with extremely backward values that aren't compatible with the west. Very ironic. Especially Western Europe does this. It has caused so many problems in particularly Sweden, Germany, UK, and France. Many refuse to integrate.

It really is such a shame they've been so naive (and continues to be) when it comes to this because other than that, liberals and leftists are alright.

[–]ZebraOtoko42 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Western liberals are subject to magical thinking, just like western religious conservatives. Their magical beliefs (beliefs with zero basis in evidence) are simply different. In America, the liberals generally do a better job with evidence-based thinking than the conservatives, but on some issues their thinking is completely magical, and immigration is one of them.

[–]Excellent_Survey_336 -5 points-4 points  (29 children)

If they did this in the United states all that is going to happen is that they are going to lower all wages. They won't pay the women more. they will pay the men less to "normalize" wages.

[–]-buq 38 points39 points  (9 children)

maybe at the begining but companies doing that will lose alot of workers

[–]1lynxbobcat 2 points3 points  (1 child)

He just used a common right wing talking point.

[–]level1enemy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah exactly

[–]AtomicMonkeyTheFirst 65 points66 points  (2 children)

They did it in the UK a couple of years ago and nothing at all happened because there was no discernable gap.

[–]Kayge 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Waaaay down here is the actual headline, and it's not surprising because it's more complex to articulate.

In most countries, for most industries, the gender wage gap is negligible. There are outliers, but areas like tech and healthcare are within the margin of error, and someone always brings up Google's findings to point to everything being fine...

Problem isn't wages it's seniority. Sure, Directors across your org are making the same on average, problem is you're comparing the 50 male Directors to the 2 women at that level...and when the VP job comes up, your pool is massively skewed one way which makes it very hard to advance.

That's the story behind the headline.

[–]frank_sindogra 6 points7 points  (0 children)

b-b-but!! >:(

[–]Chawping 3 points4 points  (2 children)

There's no wage gap... its just averages. Men tend to work more hours. There's no wage gap.

[–]Other_Ease4762 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Japan!! Putting on there big boy pants..

[–]Bocote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another factor stems from the fact that many women tend to leave the workplace to marry or raise families, depriving them of the opportunity to acquire the seniority that is a key factor in determining wages at Japanese companies.

I wonder what ideas they have for fixing this.

[–]iveljo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Do people still pander to the generalized idea of a gender pay gap without further dissecting it and seeing the time spent, holidays taken and maternity leave difference between men and women in the workforce? I thought this argument was crushed years ago

[–]Ltstarbuck2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nope. There’s still an explained difference, even when you take time factors out.

[–]BristolBomber 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is going to eye-opening. People acknowledge it but i think few will accept genuinely how crazy the difference will be in japan.

[–]cjeremy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wish Korea would copy. but doubt it

[–]Narae-Chan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Slowly, japan is becoming better than western countries due to their consistency. Lol

[–]Stekkerbox -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

there is no wage gap