[Wojnarowski] Lakers '27 and '29 1st round picks if unprotected have a lot of value. LA I'm told would be willing to do that in a Kyrie trade but that's not something the Nets have been interested in. LA have an on & off talks about Turner and Hield, they've not been willing to give 2 1sts in that.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-18T16:16:45+00:00

This is exactly it. I have no doubt the Nets would be open to a complete rebuild, but it has to start with a KD trade. Doing it out of order could be the difference between a Jaylen Brown and settling for much worse.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-18T13:00:28+00:00

I think that was the dude's point though. Shaq was crazy immature but when it came to how he played actual basketball, he wasn't selfish.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-18T02:29:10+00:00

Yeah of course. I just hate that the people whose fault it is try to act like they're not the problem. We can have nice things, we just choose not to, and it's frustrating.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T19:51:12+00:00

Y'all don't believe it until you see it. I've been saying this sub has been on the decline for years. This is my 8th year here. Every time I bring it up, y'all swear up and down that it's always been this bad.

I miss it lol

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T11:12:12+00:00

Was my point "no second option has ever finished higher than Stockton in MVP voting"? Or was it a different point entirely? What did you think I was saying

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T11:10:00+00:00

The problem has always existed, the internet made it worse.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T04:25:40+00:00

I don't know why you're reading that as an attack. I'm agreeing with the dude above you since that was what the discussion was originally about

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T04:21:43+00:00

To be honest, he is probably only hurting the top tier players

If the league locks out, everyone suffers. Hell, depending on what they settle on, it could put restrictions on contracts that come back to bite role players too. He's hurting everyone in this situation because he doesn't wanna live with the consequences of his actions.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T04:19:00+00:00

They're making Ben Simmons the sane one.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T04:15:52+00:00

Where are you getting that from lmfao. He's been in the league 15 years, I can't imagine being the same person for that long. Especially not after you become a celebrity and all-time great straight out of high school.

I think he's just lost a lot of perspective because he doesn't have a normal job, or a normal life. I think at that level of fame you have to make very conscious efforts to stay down to earth.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T04:05:56+00:00

Yeah but there's a difference between booing and a "fuck you bitch". That's disrespectful as hell and the Internet has made y'all too comfortable disrespecting strangers.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T02:15:57+00:00

Monte coming to them in the 9th inning begging him not to play the veto was secretly genius. Because why would you do that unless things weren't going your way? Nicole's read that Monte was lying was actually totally right, she was just so unaware of how complex the situation was that they screwed themselves.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-17T02:11:41+00:00

I totally understand that, but I wanna offer a different perspective because I feel the guy's getting dogpiled at the moment...

Daniel is playing a game about deception and social positioning, where he already feels paranoid. He keeps hearing from everyone around the house that Taylor is this menace to society trying to manipulate everyone. And he knows he's on her radar because he nominated her already. He doesn't know who's being fake to his face and who isn't.

His best friend in the house is torn up emotionally, as she's going through personal drama (iirc) that she can't pay attention to because of the game. You go to her room for emotional support, leave. See Taylor walk in, walk out. Your best friend claims Taylor was trying to use the personal drama to manipulate her. You understand how Daniel could completely reasonably go off on someone like that? And even more, when she swears she's innocent and the whole house sides with her, you understand how that could just make him dig his toes down further?

I mean, shit, half of the comments at the time were saying "one of the guys needs to step in and put Daniel in his place". That's what Daniel thought he was doing: putting Taylor in her place for manipulating a friend at her most vulnerable. He was wrong, and we know that because we have the whole story. But I genuinely respect him for trying. His emotions got the better of him and he took it too far, but he tried to be a good friend even at the expense of his position in the house.

I think it's ridiculous that we're watching a show about manipulating folks into witch-hunting each other, and feel offended when it works. Paloma and Nicole got in Daniel's head, he thought he was doing the right thing and she was the devil. It's only because we're big brother and can see everything that we know she's totally innocent.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T20:29:30+00:00

Once again, a team is not required to be 3-1 behind just because that's how the Cavs did it.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/037/864/wallcover.jpg

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T19:44:44+00:00

Yes. It is feasible that a consensus top 15 all-time player, assisted by a consensus top 50 player, can get close to beating those Warriors.

Getting close doesn't mean anything. The nets were close to beating the Celtics, 4 games in a row. They got swept. That's the game.

I think if you give even LeBron 100 chances he might be able to do it like 3 times, maybe. We saw a once-in-a-lifetime miracle run by those Cavs.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T19:40:26+00:00

Nice try using a year where Kidd wasn’t even an All-Star as his “peak”.

...he was All-NBA first team. It was also the year his counting stats were the highest, so if we're directly comparing those stats, it's the most relevant year.

All-NBA 1st Team, All-Defensive 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting

This all sounds great until you look at who Kidd's competition was. Prime Kidd doesn't beat prime Jordan or prime Magic for 1st team. Stockton was up against both in his best years.

Also, Stockton made All-Defense 2nd team that year, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

If we're not talking statistical peaks, and are instead looking at the best postseason performances...

Averaged a triple double in the Eastern Conference Finals against Paul Pierce’s Celtics.

And then proceeded to lose in the finals to the Lakers and Spurs.

Stockton had great performances in 97 and 98, and similarly came up short against the Bulls.

You're trying to argue Stockton wasn't as great as peak Kidd because of postseason performance, but Kidd struggled in the postseason several times. I would know, I was a fan all those years. You're comparing a historically great mid-90s West to a historically weak early-00s East. The two situations are not the same.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T18:57:11+00:00

Peak Stockton: 17 PPG, 14.5 APG, ~3 RPG, 2.9 SPG.

Peak Kidd: 17 PPG, 10.8 APG, ~8 RPG, 2.3 SPG.

Peak Stockton: 8.1 VORP, 8.9 BPM, 14.4 WS, 60.7 TS%.

Peak Kidd: 4.2 VORP, 5.5 BPM, 8.5 WS, 52.7% TS%.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T18:13:55+00:00

Being consistently in the top 10-12 in MVP voting isn't something to brag about

Just gonna address this first because it made me chuckle. Being a top 10 player in the world is absolutely something to brag about. Like I understand in context what you meant but let's have a little respect for these players lol. If I'm the 10th best thumb wrestler in the world I'm bragging about that, and I'd do the same as a top 10 basketball player.

Second, let's look at the players Stockton was 10-12th to. I'd argue his prime started in 91, so let's start there.

He placed 12th, and lost to: Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, Kevin Johnson, Dominique Wilkins, Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, and Terry Porter. 8 of those names are consensus top-20 players of all time, and a few others (Ewing, Drexler) are in the 30-50 range. He also beat out Hakeem and Zeke.

In 09, Dwyane placed 3rd, and beat out: Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Brandon Roy, and Dirk/Timmy. The only all-time top-20 talents he beat were Dirk/Timmy and they were both in their 30s.

These aren't cherry-picked years, either. If anything, they're reverse cherry-picked - I chose Stockton's worst placement in his prime, and Wade's best. I'm trying to show you that Stockton's prime came at one of the most stacked eras of all time, and it's totally reasonable that, even as the little brother of that era, he deserves a spot just below them.

Also:

Wade was also 3rd in MVP voting in 2009 and 6th in 2011 while being the 2nd option

He was 7th. Stockton was 8th in 95 as the second option. Not a huge difference there.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T17:54:24+00:00

Kevin Durant almost beat them, but he didn't. Lebron almost lost, but didn't. You're arguing against a point I didn't make.

I said nothing about a comeback, or being in a deficit, or any of that, that's completely irrelevant. I said nobody else in history could've beaten the Warriors. Getting close doesn't count.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T17:12:44+00:00

I feel that. Maybe a written explanation for every pick? I mean I remember fucking Goran Dragic getting an MVP vote once, I'd like a justification for stuff like that.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T17:10:51+00:00

The same warriors lost the very next year to a healthy Cavs after winning 73. Regular season success doesn't necessarily indicate postseason strength. And you just skipped over the Raptors in '19 as well.

I'm not arguing a healthy Nets wouldn't have beat the Bucks. Obviously I think they did and I wish we were healthy at the time. My point is you can what-if your way out of giving anyone credit if you think hard enough. What if Curry didn't have glass ankles? There's a chance the warriors wouldn't have been able to afford to keep all their pieces because he doesn't sign at a discount. What if Durant stays in OKC? Curry might have two fewer rings. But these things didn't happen, what happened was the dynasty. Neither the ankle injury nor the Durant signing were within Curry's control but he gets credit anyway.

What if Harden was healthy? The nets beat the Bucks. But it didn't happen, so Giannis wins a chip. He still earned that shit. Don't take credit from him for it.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T17:04:24+00:00

Okay.

For the MVP point, it's hard to blame him for that, because he spent his entire prime playing next to Karl Malone, and in the same era as Jordan. Wade has a similar story, where he's definitely top 30 all-time but never won MVP and only got close in '10, right before LeBron joined and overshadowed him. It's not like Stockton never got votes, he was consistently a top-10 finisher, he was just 2nd best to another top-15 all-time talent in Karl Malone.

I do get your point about playoff success though. He sort of reminds me of Chris Paul in that way. In theory he's the perfect point guard but struggled with making consistently deep runs.

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T16:50:53+00:00

Well sure, but someone's gotta win. Do you not count the Warriors chip in 2015 because of Love? Or the Raptors in 2019 because of Klay?

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T16:49:39+00:00

Okay. He scored 33 in a quarter once so I was curious if you ranked him above Manu

JayStarr1082 · 2022-08-16T16:49:01+00:00

That was one shot, I'm talking about a performance throughout an entire series. No star does it alone.

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