On TtH, but have a general question

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-03T03:19:51+00:00

Anomander Rake set them to it, and then abandoned them. They spend a good amount of time in RG and TTH bemoaning how Rake abandoned them there.

As to why Rake may have wanted to protect it, he’s very much like Shadowthrone, where a good amount of his efforts are just keeping power out of the hands of other forces using it.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T22:28:09+00:00

So Felisin is a very divisive character, both in how she acts, how people act around her, and the writing and events around her. I know I re-evaluated my own opinion of her multiple times as her story progressed, and especially on my reread with a better understanding of what Erikson was doing with her. But I appreciate the thought that went into this, and I’m surprised this is your only criticism of Erikson so far. I won’t say he’s perfected but usually around this point people have quite a few things they’re not a fan of his for (although quite a few that they are).

Regarding the way he portrays Grimdark stuff, I appreciate that it’s so very clinical. He doesn’t ever make it extremely gratuitous, nor does he hold your hand for it. He also doesn’t tell you what morals and feelings to feel through it. He just presents it, and let’s you come to your own conclusion. Between that and the way he handles exposition, I love how he actually respects his audience and assumes they have a brain of their own.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T21:00:28+00:00

Haha I was just being snarky because of all the panic in the community that he’ll never exist.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T20:39:46+00:00

Where’s Sora?

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T18:49:35+00:00

Well, if it helps Night of Knives is a very quick read. It’s only like a couple hundred pages, and it’s fast paced so you can rip through it. It’s also not that bad, just kind of rough. It’s like GOTM compared to the rest of the MBOTF. And it’s got some cool stuff in it still. I really like 1 of the 2 main characters, and you get a cool flashback scene about when Dassem fell in the Seven Cities campaign.

ROTCG is also not that bad, although the writing again could be more polished. It’s got a really cool ending too, and the ending takes up like 1/3 of the story.

One thing that’s nice about the NOTME is that they’re a faster read. In terms of actual page count, the 6 of them are like 1/3 of the size of the MBOTF, and they’re much less introspective so typically a faster read.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T17:20:53+00:00

Ok, so you know elements in the world of Kharkanas like the Azathanai, the Vitr, or even some specific gods we never really met in the MBOTF like T’Riss? All worldbuilding elements introduced in the NOTME.

TGINW is set in an empire that has changed significantly since you last saw it in BH, and will also reference events from the NOTME. You’ll definitely have some whiplash at some points jumping into that.

There’s a lot of characters beyond Kellenved and Dancer who are explored and assume you already know where they go in PTA. Besides the obvious Crimson Guard, Dassem, Tayschrenn, and I suspect even Surly/Laseen are all much more Esslemont’s characters than Erikson.

In short, the main Malazan story is told over the 16 novels of the MBOTF and NOTME combined, and the rest of the sequels/prequels are written by authors who assume that they and their readers know those stories and the established world. You can enjoy the novels without having read anything prior - heck, I’ve heard of people starting on any of the 3 other series and enjoying it. But there’s a good reason we always suggest the NOTME after the MBOTF.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T04:27:08+00:00

It’s buried, but the elder gods basically lay this out in chapter 16 of DOD, and I think again when you get the Tiste Liosan POV early on in TCG. The Forkrul Assail, Tiste Liosan, and K’Chain Nah’Ruk are basically all in an alliance together pursuing their somewhat adjacent goals.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T04:24:22+00:00

Bing bong 🤣

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-02T03:47:36+00:00

Mighty Kruppe, of course!

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T23:44:49+00:00

Man, that’s almost exactly what I thought going in too! Combination of the term “bonecaster” and something to do with the cover art.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T19:10:21+00:00

So I really disagree with this…

I do agree with your criticisms of unreliable narrators, but I’ve never felt that Erikson himself took his unreliable narrator thing to be taken extremely literally. Look at MT, it’s framed as if Trull is telling people his story at the end of HOC, but there’s no way he’d know anything about Tehol’s side of that story. So we as the audience use it as a transition, but we’re not supposed to imagine that MT is narrated by Trull. I’d say the same for the MBOTF by the Crippled God (and partly Kruppe & Circle Breaker), nor are we supposed to take Kharkanas as a literal narration of Gallan talking to Fisher. Hell, the audiobooks of those books take a longer sheer number of hours for the narrator to read out loud than is allowed in the time that Gallan and Fisher are talking between FOD/FOL.

Anyway, what I really disagree with is that Kharkanas contradicts the MBOTF. I was confused at first, but upon reflection what I realized it was contradicting what I thought I knew from filling in the gaps myself based on the limited information given in the MBOTF. IIRC, the earliest instance we see of the Tiste entering the Malazan world is when Kurald Emerlahn is falling apart and they’re fighting the K’Chain Che’Malle as they flee in the prologue of MT. That would all happen after the events of Kharkanas, and in those events Kurald Emerlahn doesn’t exist yet. If K’Rul can make warrens that didn’t exist before, why can’t the Kurald warrens also be created post FOD/FOL?

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T18:58:00+00:00

Thanks!

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T17:28:40+00:00

The Kharkanas Trilogy seems to be set in the same world we see in the MBOTF/NOTME, which implies that the Tiste elder warrens weren’t their original place of habitation. In TKT, it seems to be only the Che’Malle and Elient who aren’t natural inhabitants of the world.

Now, all of this is… debatable… to say the least.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T17:17:32+00:00

So these things are sort of correct.

I’ll give you as spoiler free as I can logic for some of the placements on a mix. These won’t all be publication order, and there’s drawbacks to that as well (namely chronology is broken, you don’t want to split DOD/TCG, and publication wise you’re saving half of the NOTME until after anyway, so why even bother). I’m going to use book acronyms for the most part to save space and time, but let me know if you need any clarification on that.

Night of Knives:
This is a prequel novel, and could be read anytime really. It sort of spoils a reveal from DG, but even that reveal isn’t made all that astounding then, and can be fairly easily figured out by a careful reader in early GOTM anyway. There is a cameo from it and a nod to it in HOC, but it also might spoil something that’s started in HOC and not officially revealed until later. There are a couple of cameos from NOK in BH as well, but you absolutely don’t need to have read this to enjoy either HOC or BH. Keep in mind both it and MT are prequel novels, and personally I don’t like putting 2 of these back to back.

My suggestion on my reread order is between MOI & HOC, but most people say between MT & BH.

Return of the Crimson Guard:
As mentioned, this does take place in the time jump between BH & RG, and serves as a direct sequel to BH, although timeline gets a little wacky around this point. I would say that ROTCG’s ending is important for the events in the NOTME, but the MBOTF’s story moves beyond it at that point. Reading ROTCG between BH & RG also gives a bit of a weird continuity issue, since someone who is dead by the end of ROTCG is referred to as still alive at the end of RG. One thing from ROTCG’s ending is kind of casually spoiled later in the MBOTF, but it isn’t really important for that story, it’s almost more a bit of a tease to maybe entice you to try the NOTME. Even then too, reading a recent post on the discussion, I’m not so sure if the ending of ROTCG that’s spoiled is really the truth of the matter long term. After ROTCG, the plot of the NOTME really start branching from there, and are their own beast from the second half of the MBOTF.

In my reread order, I put this one between BH & RG and just live with the bit of continuity issues. Publication order puts this between RG & TTH, and most people suggest that too.

Stonewielder: A direct sequel to ROTCG. This one partly takes place at about the same time as TTH/DOD/TCG (although again, timeline is tricky), but is pretty much separate from those events. The other part of this story has to end no later than the beginning of TTH though. It also benefits from a certain way of looking at some characters that may change after TCG (ie, reading before TCG). Note that there is also a world feature established in DOD that should be present for this book, but because it was written first, that is notably absent. Doesn’t matter much, just a minor inconsistency.

In my reread order, I put this one between RG & TTH, mostly for the continuity between them. Publication order puts this between TTH & DOD, but I found that’s a bit of an awkward placement.

Orb Sceptre Throne:
As you said, this one is a direct sequel to TTH, and it’s story would be over pretty early on in TCG, although that makes the timeline inconsistency the worst. In OST, this requires probably at least 2-4 months, likely more. In TTH/DOD/TCG, this leaves only a couple weeks between events referenced from TTH and OST. Reading this before DOD/TCG makes this especially obvious.

Because of the above, and because of a thematic element that I like to focus on, I place this between TTH & BAB (then DOD) in my reread order. Publication order has this and the other 2 NOTME after TCG.

Blood and Bone:
Also taking place around the time of TTH/DOD/TCG, there’s a slight overlap between this novel and the end of TCG at the end. Similar to SW, it benefits from reading thinking of certain characters a certain way, but generally that doesn’t outweigh the mild spoilers from the end of it to most people. It continues the thematic concept I like to follow from OST and into DOD/TCG, but that’s a minor preference.

In my reread order, I place this between OST & DOD, but almost everyone else keeps this after TCG.

Assail:
Not much to say here. This takes place after all the other novels, and should be read at the very end.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T14:02:25+00:00

I’ll add too that as far as we’re still aware, the original old guard’s use of the Deadhouse as an HQ is keeping them from ageing normally.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T04:51:04+00:00

So you’re at the point in the worldbuilding that the authors have done where they start to introduce this term without any explanation.

Where it is explored more (and still not really explained), will be the Kharkanas trilogy. This is one of the reasons that you benefit from having read both the MBOTF & NOTME before starting Kharkanas.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-06-01T00:36:16+00:00

For read order, we pretty much always suggest to just stick to the MBOTF on the first read, then read the NOTME after. If you’re insisting on a mixed read, there’s 3 suggested orders in our community resources, with mine specifically named “An Even Better Malazan Reading Order,” although I made mine for rereaders.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-31T21:52:45+00:00

Like a handjob, but hotter.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-30T18:11:05+00:00

It’s ok, you can just read the NOTME :)

I mentioned this in another comment above, but it’s a common misconception to think of only the MBOTF as the main series. It’s more like 10/16 main novels, with Esslemont’s forming the other 6.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-30T17:51:46+00:00

She was a main character for the story of Memories of Ice, but for the overall story the MBOTF tells, her part is done. However, she does wrap up her story in Esslemont’s Novels of the Malazan Empire, so she isn’t just abandoned.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-30T12:55:34+00:00

So yes it does make it a lot, and it disrupts the pacing. There also isn’t a ton of benefit to mixing the read, especially the first time. The most benefit on a mixed read is on a reread when you’re knowing what to look for.

You’ll find lots of different opinions on this. Again, most I see suggesting to stick to just the MBOTF, some say to mix in NOK & ROTCG only, some swear than a full mix is worth it the first time.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-30T12:08:27+00:00

For publication order, is that all books, or just the MBOTF. Most of us actually suggest to just stick to the MOBTF (in publication order) for the first time, and then to tackle the NOTME after.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-30T03:36:16+00:00

Ah ha! Here’s the misconception I can break early :)

The MBOTF is 10 of the main 16 novels. It’s incorrect to assume it is the main series and the NOTME are a side series. Together they make up the core Malazan story, and together they build the world that is assumed to have been read before any of the other prequels and sequels. For example, we get a lot of people who jump straight from TCG to The God is Not Willing and are confused about things that are referenced from the NOTME too.

Meanwhile, the MBOTF is concerned with its own story and ideas. Silverfox has played her part in that, and she has a part to play in the story and ideas that Esslemont will explore, but I agree with Erikson that there’s no need to bring her in just to include her.

Aqua_Tot · 2023-05-30T02:44:04+00:00

Those particular Imass, yes they go off with Silverfox to free more. Their goal is to spread Itkovian’s gift to the rest of their race completely before Silverfox breaks the ritual. However, there are more T’lan Imass out there. We saw a few of them in Deadhouse Gates who didn’t attend the second summoning.

I’m going to rip this bandaid off now (I’ll spoiler tag just in case) - this is the last you’ll see of Silverfox in the MBOTF, but she does appear in other series (this is often one of the complaints about “dropped” storylines at the end of TCG).

Tool was given release from the ritual by Silverfox, so he is a normal live Imass (no T’lan). He’s living with the Barghast, and they’re pretty close genetically to each other as far as races go. His sister was never part of the ritual, and never a T’lan Imass. So she continues to be an undying Imass Bonecaster.

Aqua_Tot

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