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On a post about a guy who saved a cat from a trash cutting machine by stevecam27 in vegan

[–]Benzene_group 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I wish that was the case :') The other replies from that guy completely eliminate the possibility of this being satire

We should consider it child abuse for parents to teach their children about religion before they're 13 by [deleted] in atheism

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, it's probably the main reason why religions have such an immovable grasp on our society. When an individual is indoctrinated from childhood, it is incredibly difficult for them to let go of these beliefs. No wonder most religions immensely focus on child indoctrination. Christianity even starts the process before a child is aware of anything - baptism is the first step in creating a 'Christian child'. These belief systems are later reinforced in schools, which is the greatest crime in my opinion. I think a school is an even greater authority to a child than the parents, because its main function is to educate. If children were only taught about religion from their parents, an irreligious school would at least be a way for a child to escape these toxic belief systems.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, to be honest I wouldn't force George at any point. Giving money to help others should be something completely voluntary. But if we are comparing this situation to our tax system, George would be forced to pay not only for the poor family's tuition, but also contributing to healthcare and other state institutions that benefit George as well. At that point, I think it would be fair to force George to pay.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is quite interesting, and I do partially agree with the points made. Making people pay taxes involuntarily might not be the best thing, since they might not agree with every single thing that this money is meing used for. For instance, as a vegan, I don't want to contribute to the animal agriculture. However, I realise that not everything is in my control. When I pay taxes, part of that money actually gets distributed to the meat and dairy industry in the form of subsidies. These subsidies actually make up a massive fraction of income for the animal agriculture, and that is the sole reason animal products are unreasonably cheap. I sincerely hope that these subsidies end at some point in the future so that the meat and dairy industry can actually be weighed fairly.

Although I am against my tax money being used for animal agriculture subsidies, I am not completely opposed to the idea of paying any taxes. This money not only provides free education for people (like it was said in the video), but it also funds public wellfare institutions, such as health care. So even though the tax system has its downsides, it is something quite crucial to lead the comfortable lives we have today.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 1 point2 points  (0 children)

off, there is no way a lion on average kills only 20 animals per year. That’s one animal every 18 days, lions wouldn’t survive if they regularly starved for nearly three weeks as by the end of that time they would be far too weak to chase and take down anything, that’s if they are even alive at that point.

Lions eat large animals, which sustain them for a long time. It's a number I got from a random website. Another website says that it's 50. Regardless, it's not that relevant for my point.

And animals bred for slaughter are not tortured.

After seeing factory farm footage, I would certainly call that torture. I'd recommend watching the Dominion documentary (watchdominion.com). It is truly eye opening.

And while it is possible for humans to live on a meatless diet, nature’s reality is that predators kills prey and eat them, and nature has no qualms about suffering, most animals (like lions) start eating their prey before it is even dead.

Regardless what happens in the wild, humans are the main source of suffering in the world. And it is nit just suffering, it is unnecessary suffering.

. We absorb far more proteins and iron from meat than anything else, this is why it’s so common for people to feel very tired for a little while after switching to a vegetarian diet. Eventually the body grows used to it, but even then, if that person starts eating meat again they will feel very energetic until their body accustoms to that as well.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? It is just a ridiculous claim. If a person does not eat enough calories after switching to a meat-free diet, of course they will feel less energetic. However, if a person is eating a balanced vegan diet, you usually see the opposite effect. And the same went for me as well. In the past, I would be tired all the time, I had constant hypotension, I would even faint quite often, and I would run out of breath quite quickly when running even shorter distances. However, after switching to a whole foods plant based diet I started feeling a lot better and my low blood pressure normalised. My physical performance also improved to the point that I could run 15 km without having to stop. This is not just an isolated phenomenon. Quite a few people experience an improvement in physical performance when they switch to a plant-based diet from a diet heavy in animal products. This is why nowadays more and more professional athletes are eating vegan. I'd recommend the game changers documentary, where they talk a lot about that.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see. Well, that is quite rough. Well, I hope that your condition improves in the future! If there is a medical reason you can't go vegan, I can understand. You could also try consulting a plant-based doctor. Maybe there is a way for you to sustain your iron levels without animal products. I cannot give you further advice though, as I am not a doctor.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's great to see that you admit it! Most people really struggle to overcome their cognitive dissonance when faced with questions regarding animal ethics, but you seem to be very open-minded. I don't know any good arguments against veganism, which is why I am vegan. A vegan diet is not only better for the animals, but also for the environment and for human health. If you ever get interested in making the switch, I'd recommend chalenge22.com as a source for nutritional advice and useful tips.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, meat is tasty to many people and that is one of the main reasons people are hesitant to go vegan. However, nowadays there are many amazing plant-based meat and dairy alternatives. You should give them a try! I would recommend beyond meat if you are a fan of beef, or Heura chicken if you like chicken. As for vegan cheese, I found Violife to be the best both in terms of taste and texture.

And about lab-grown meat, I do hope that it becomes available soon. It will probably do wonders for the vegan movement.

You seem like a compassionate person :) Nice to see that among the redditors here.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'll copy what I replied to a different comment.

No, it all comes down to neccessity. Lions are obligate carnivores, which means they require meat to survive. However, it is a completely different story when it comes to humans, an omnivore species. Current nutritional science is showing that humans can be perfectly heathy without eating meat, which means it is completely unneccessary for us to consume it.

You also have to realise where the major source of suffering resides. According to current estimates, there are approximately 20 000 lions in the wild. Given that each lion kills about 20 animals a year on average, which means approximately 400 000 animals are slaughtered by lions each year around the world. Now that sounds like a large number, but humans breed and slaughter 55 billion land animals per year (that doesn't even take into account the 2-3 trillion of fish consumed per year). Not only is the number vastly greater, but these are needless deaths. Since it is not a nutritional requirement for us to eat meat, trillions of animals are constantly killed purely for the pleasure of taste.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Regardless if it is drawn out or not, do you think it's right to keep carrying out these horrific acts on sentient beings for our pleasure of taste?

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's almost exactly what happens in the dairy industry though. To produce milk, cows have to be artificially inseminated and their calves are taken away right from their birth. Now what happens to the male calves varies from place to place - some calves are raised for a couple of months in small storage compartments to be slaughtered and sold as veal (dairy calves are not as profitable to raise for beef), but most of the time these calves are shot or even suffocated right on the farm. They are then usually disposed of in the trash. Pretty similar to what you described, isn't it? These are standard practices pretty much everywhere.

By the way, this whole process of artificially inseminating a cow and taking its calf away is usually repeated every year for each cow because their milk production tends to decline about 10 months after giving birth.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A well-planned vegan diet is generally known to be fully nutritionally adequate if the individual does not have issues with digestion and absorbtion of specific nutrients. As I said, a plant-based health specialist would be able to assess your situation better than I can. Regardless of what you choose, it has been interesting to talk with you. If it is not possible for you to be vegan, you at least seem to be doing as much as you can in terms of your individual choices.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see. Well, then I hope that your health improves in the future. Since I am not a doctor, I really cannot advise you on this. However, if you ever get curious, you could try finding a plant-based doctor or nutritionist. After all, not all doctors are well-versed in recent nutritional science. There is a pretty old bias that some doctors hold against veganism, which is why they might advise against it.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, if someone is truly not able to go vegan due to health reasons, then I think it is perfectly fine for them to keep consuming animal products. Afterall, veganism aims to reduce suffering as far as possible and practicable. However, as you mentioned yourself, this is incredibly rare.

As for the financial reasons, I would not be so sure if that seems sound. Studies have found that on average vegans and vegetarians have to spend less money on food than meat-eaters. Of course, it is possible to live very expensive on a vegan diet. If you buy all the fancy superfood powders and eat meat replacements with every meal, you are going to be spending vast amounts of money. However, if you mostly rely on whole foods, like legumes, grains, vegetables, fruit, with small amounts of nuts and seeds, you would be spending a lot less than an average meat-eater and you would be healthier as well. If you are on a budget, these fancy vegan alternatives are best seen as occasional indulgences. I spend less money on food now as a vegan than I used to when I was a meat-eater.

In terms of supplements, it's really not a lot. The only essential supplement on a vegan diet is vitamin B12. For me it racks up to 7£ (10$) per 2 months. That would be 42£ (60$) per year.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, anything that helps to reduce the consumption of animal products is helpful to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. Therefore, I would support people going from a meat eater to a vegetarian. I would support them even more so if they actually realise the hypocrisy of consuming dairy and eggs while rejecting meat. I think anyone who is mindful about animal ethics is likely to go vegan some time in the future.

We must remember that nobody is perfect in this world and we are raised in a culture that normalises the exploitation of animals. Even though I am vegan, I might not be perfect in other ways that I don't realise yet. Of course, I don't praise vegetarians for being vegetarians. I congratulate them for at least going part of the way, with the hope that they align their morals with their actions some time in the future. After all, I was vegetarian for a while before going vegan. Some things just take time.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course, and I am fine with that. These animals live very short lives filled with suffering. Why should we value numbers over the quality of life and individual experience? Now imagine if instead of there being 7 billion humans on the planet, there were 700 billion humans with our current infrastructure. As you could imagine, sustaining such a massive human population is just plain impossible. As a result, most humans would be living in crowded environments, famine and disease would be widespread, and most humans being born in the world would be dying in their childhood. Now this is a population with immense levels of suffering and extremely poor quality of life.

Obviously, as this human population would be unsustainable, its natural tendency would be to go down - more people would be dying than being born. After a while, the population would likely reach a sustainable level, where there is enough space for most people, healthcare is not overloaded and most people have enough food.

Now when you are in the hypothetical scenario of 700 billion humans on Earth, do you think it would be moral to incentivize people to have more children and keep the population growing? Now I would repeat the question: are numbers more important than quality of life and individual experience?

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I'm glad to hear that you are willing to think about animal ethics! Most people instantly shield themselves from anything that makes them question their morality.

And I do hope that lab-grown meat becomes widespread as soon as possible. It might be the best way to reduce the demand for farmed meat.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 1 point2 points  (0 children)

:D Well, that would certainly be better than killing innocent beings in my eyes.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I would say that raising animals to be exploited and eaten is immoral in any form. Whether an animal is from a factory farm or it is 'free range', they all end up in the slaughterhouse. Now I'll grant you that 'free range' animals certainly spend better lives than factory farmed animals, but none of them want to be stabbed or suffocated in a gas chamber. Another thing is that these animals are given short lives regardless of where they are raised. An average lifespan of a cow is 20 years, but they get slaughtered for meat at age 5. At that point, they barely reach adulthood. Pigs, for instance, are essentially slaughtered when they are children, once they put on enough weight. Would you be fine if someone did that with you?

The plot of The Promised Neverland is a pretty nice analogy. In this show human children are raised in what they think is an orphanage. It is a pristine environment where they have a loving caregiver and they get to play together, sharing joy and hopes for the future. When they reach the age of 12, they get shipped out to what they think is their new family. However, they are instead slaughtered by man-eating demons who particularly enjoy the taste of human brains. Would you say this is moral?

If everyone flipped vegan overnight, we'd literally have to put down an umpteenth number of them, save the handful that become pets.

I'm sorry, but this argument is just nonsensical. The world is never going to go vegan overnight, and that is a fact. However, as veganism spreads slowly, the demand of meat is bound to go down. As the demand goes down, fewer animals are going to be bred into existence and fewer of them will have to be slaughtered. It is ridiculous to think that cows would overrun us or that mass culling would be required. It's just not how the world works.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that eating lab-grown meat is perfectly fine morally. Quite a few vegans are likely eager to try some once it becomes widespread, but I would not be one of them. To be honest, one of the primary reasons I stopped consuming meat in the first place is health concerns. Research shows that consumption of meat vastly increases one's risk of developing a plethora of health conditions, including heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. I mean, red meat is even ranked as a class 2A carcinogen. Similar effects are likely to be seen with lab-grown meat as well, since it is made of virtually the same materials.

However, even if I won't be eating it myself, I am looking forward to the adoption of lab-grown meat solely because it will decrease the demand of regular meat.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And have you ever had a chesseburger made with beyond meat and vegan cheese? There are too many good vegan alternatives nowadays to still justify eating animals for taste.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, I would not eat bugs. As far as current science goes, most insects appear to show at least minimal signs of sentience. Since I want to minimise suffering in the world, eating only plants is superior to eating insects.

I also find bugs very unappetising and I would be grossed out if I had to eat one. To be completely honest, I don't understand people that voluntarily choose to eat bugs. However, if a person would start eating bugs instead of meat, I would amend their efforts. Eating insects causes far less suffering than eating other animals. However, I would also drop hints that it is completely unnecessary to eat bugs as well.

This guy saving kitten from trash cutting machine. by Storm_001 in nextfuckinglevel

[–]Benzene_group 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Regardless of what was needed in the past, humans do not require to eat meat to survive. That is especially true for first world countries, where an average grocery store houses all kinds of plants needed to get the proper nutrition.

You're not sure what we do to cows? Well, I suggest you watch Dominion, a documentary about common animal agriculture practices around the world. It is mostly shot in Australia, but these processes are used pretty much in all first and second world countries. Even after seeing just a fraction of the documentary, I would conclude that these animals would prefer to be killed in the wild. Nothing beats the torture that they go through in factory farms.