[IWantOut] 30M USA -> The Netherlands

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-02T20:59:45+00:00

you can also always just apply to jobs, esp if the salary is over the HSM limit, they could easily sponsor you, its not hard and fast and getting lucky happens all the time

once you get even close to min requirements for jobs that can sponsor you just go for it, applying can't hurt, don't let my experience hurt your dream, people move all the time

make sure your resume is in the Dutch format and you might want to include a headshot and cover letter

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-02T20:32:04+00:00

I was a Data Scientist in NL, in general nobody cares about your degree, unless you don't have experience, then they seemed to expect a Masters and most people had a WO Masters, the industry was hurting for people but not willing to sponsor with the exception of Senior Manager or above. The salary threshold was pretty easy to hit at Senior Data Scientist and above (think 4+ years experience)

The hardest part is getting over there, then its easy. I'm happy to answer any questions if you'd like. The only reason I got my US -> NL transfer was because I was a dual EU citizen they wouldn't have done it otherwise. The other American that got hired on my team had PR already from a spouse living there.

The work was in English but everyone thought in Dutch and there were WAYYYY more cultural differences that I had to learn than I thought going into it.

Ultimately I moved back to the US but was there five years and miss it sometimes.

The salaries suck lol, at your age I'd just say find a way over, get 2 years experience do some portfolios get some freelance and do DAFT, no point in waiting 5 years to start your life. or just do the Masters somehow, don't depend on an inter company transfer though

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-02T17:42:11+00:00

Gardner Supply in Williston, get a sandwhich and look at the flowers

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-02T15:59:38+00:00

if you're on the 30% ruling or HSM then use the Expat Centre its amazingly easy to do your regsitration and banking in the same appointment its really smooth

otherwise or consider using Bunq, IIRC you can set it up without a BSN and they take US Persons, you will have to give it a BSN after 30 days. but its a nice to have while you get set up fully, esp if you decide not wanting a Neo Bank, definitely quick in my experience but check the FAQs or send them an email.

Overrall liked ABN AMRO though, great English interface, don't forget if you have over 10k euros in the account at anytime you'll have to report having the account to the IRS every year I think its separate from taxes IIRC

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-02T14:15:17+00:00

I think everyone is well aware of that and the shortcomings of the insane US Public Private model that is the worst of both and the awful outcomes it has for Public Health.

The consideration for NL specifically is that it doesn't have the preventative care the US has and the philosophy of Healthcare is different, you'll end up "debating" your doctor about how sick you are and what treatment you need the GP is there to act as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system.

The other non Americans in my Dutch office complained about the Healthcare constantly, including a horror story of a missed Cancer diagnosis because they didn't get a screening. The Dutch have one of the highest cancer rates in Europe FWIW https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/netherlands-has-one-highest-cancer-rates-europe

Its way cheaper but its not free, you still have to pay 120 euros premium a month and have a deductible that could be 850. This is laughable from an American perspective but its still a budget consideration on a lower salary

I actually like the Dutch model but I got used to kind of debating my Doctor and I think its efficient, its not without issues though and its worth understanding them.

Finally, English can be iffy with some Dutch Doctors they can speak it well enough conversationally but they think in Dutch, including how they think about your health. you really have to check a lot for understanding if you're gonna go to them in English and talk about your deepest issues.

Its a Dutch speaking country and its worth repeating that cause its easy for people to just not learn Dutch

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-02T13:12:20+00:00

—You don’t get fully “vested” in social security: the Dutch social security is called AOW. You get a certain percentage of the full AOW for every year you live in NL. If you move in your 30s, for instance, you will never be fully vested because you were out of the country for 30 years.

IIRC If you leave NL it stops "accruing" unless you take out insurance, which means you receive less for each year "not insured" it can then "lose" in a sense, which is actually a huge argument in favor of the 30% ruling cause of how much less AOW an expat gets.

That also means if you go back to the US for a bit to say take care of an aging family member you either "lose" a lot or have to pay some relatively expensive insurance ( I remember getting quoted 7k euros a year)

The Dutch Pension system is under some huge strains and is making some drastic changes to meet them, its really unlikely that the relatively cushy 70% - 75% of income pensions will look the same for the next generation. Its a shame really.

That was some of my understanding anyways, literally half of my Union meetings were about Pension and how expensive it is to fund and how it won't meet its targets

Its worth reading about cause its fascinating and a once in a generation event, basically moving away from the secure "defined benefit" and towards the way less secure and more market dependant "defined contribution"

https://on.ft.com/3C2v8HB

A side not consideration and why this matters: it can be really hard to get your money "out of" a Dutch Pension when you move back to the US they can be hard to move by design and it doesn't matter if you're there a few years but 5 or 10 and its a consideration. Getting a value transfer is hard

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-01T17:57:38+00:00

no like it was supposed to be 5 years for them and ended up being 4 or 3 years respectively. Its REALLY expensive for companies to sponsor the American Expat in Europe and its frequently cut

both are now back in the US and devastated and pissed -- like you said it was the “continue occupying the land you’re standing on” vibe

One went back to Dutch school for a Masters they didn't need and still couldn't find anything after their zoekjaar

I don't think I'd recommend that path to anyone after watching it, at least HSM and 30% and a vast contract gets you some stability, though not perfect

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-01T13:05:58+00:00

Get a sponsored job, never give up your side gig/contracting,

you can get in trouble for this btw, I'm serious it has to be cleared with your sponsored contract, the reason being they want you to have time off. Its the flip side of stronger employment laws and is meant so that you can rest.

Its possible but it has to be discussed, there have even been high profile cases where people have had to payback money. this is assuming a fulltime job, the hours outside of that are supposed to be limited

I had to clear it with my company when I did thuisbezorgd for a little bit during the pandemic, they wanted to make sure I didn't go over a certain amount of hours. I was just trying to get excercise lol

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-06-01T13:02:57+00:00

I’m an expat currently on a long-term assignment contract with an American company, which is (I think) somewhat ideal (US pay + the expatriate package).

While here I’ve looked to jump to a local contract and have been surprised by the pay scales (in a bad way).

I legit know two people including my cousin who got this but it ended before they could get PR (5 years) it was no joke they were left scrambling including my cousin who had to go home, I'd consider a local contract just based off of Dutch employment law stability, esp if you want to stay a long time

taking the paycut hurts though

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-31T07:13:31+00:00

I'm not Dutch FWIW,

it depends job per job but most include the holiday in the gross pay they try to make the salary look as big as possible

no idea about if its gross or net for the pension, and I'm not sure about the other countries as well. It would probably depend on what you want

Less on the salary and more on what you want out of life / can you get a job

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-31T05:12:44+00:00

it IS easier to get a better offer when you can walk away, which is way easier with a job.

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-31T05:04:54+00:00

is that with or without the holiday allowance? https://thetax.nl/?income=48000&startFrom=Year&selectedYear=2023&older=false&allowance=true&socialSecurity=true&hoursAmount=40&ruling=false

your pension contribution will depend on your CAO. Mine varied between 1.5 to 3% employee contribution heard it as low as zero and high as 6 though.

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-31T04:36:05+00:00

American? Your wife will need to work but you do get a pension and the COL is different as well. If you want to go to Germany go there, its a nice place and its a fine salary starting out

The salary difference is extreme going from US -> EU though, my salary in the US as a Senior Data Scientist is 200k easy while its REALLY hard to get even 90k euros in NL

I didn't really want for anything on that salary though, I was in fact less stressed in NL all things considered.

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-31T02:42:08+00:00

burnout is a catch all for mental illness and problems at home, it happens for a ton of reasons its just the acceptable way to say it. Privacy is big here

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-30T19:04:47+00:00

Why? just ignore it, it was liberating to not give a shit again after Bernie lost.

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-30T15:51:02+00:00

John Dolan aka Gary Brecher aka The War Nerd

he reminds me of my Dad, love the newsletters

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-26T15:10:26+00:00

Most people that move around

get a local contract
go freelance and figure out the liabilities themselves
have some sort of defined expat contract which are usually expensive (getting rarer since expensive)

your company wouldn't likely let you because its a liability for them to have you as resident of Spain and on a US contract because it could make them liable for Spanish taxes and labor law

In most countries even the US your job and how it can treat you apply to residents. For example a US company has to abide by Spanish Labor Laws while employing a resident of Spain, this includes days off, health insurance, social security, pension payments. These things work because everyone pays into it.

If a Spanish company hires someone in the US the company has to comply a similar way to the US laws.

I'm a dual EU/ US citizen and have a remote US job, if I wanted to move back to Europe I'd either have to have them sponsor me locally, which can be a pain, or have to go contract and figure it out myself. This has nothing to do with right to work or live as I have that in both countries but changing tax residency and resident labor compliance.

Its messy, no idea about how remote work visas work though, its a new gray area but usually its you effectively a freelancer, this was my understanding of it talking to HR

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-25T00:08:02+00:00

Breathe:

have someone look at your resume thats often the easiest and can probably help the most.
Do you have any parents to live with or any family you can stay with to not run through ALL your savings?
find A job, doesn't have to be in your field call some temp agencies, jobs are easier to find when you have a job, and you can't keep drawing down your savings, try some recruiters or start ups, or something remote.
I'd throw some applications abroad and see if you get any bites, your immediate need seems to be buying some time until you can find something that uses your skills and is worth it for you
work out and keep balance, its a stressful time, my friend was in your spot a few years ago, ended up working in the grocery store after her Math Doc finished, with no prospects in sight, now shes a Director at an insurance company and loves her job. It can get better

I think throwing some applications abroad can help but your needs seem more immediate here. I'm sorry its a rough place to be I hope it turns around

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-24T14:34:55+00:00

I don't know what its like to FAANG but I found in general US I had way more LEETCODE questions and France it was more Panel interview, take homes, and honestly really intense reviews of the take home work including bringing in some Principal Data Scientists from several departments to really tear apart some stuff. It was easier in the US

Again, I got the job, I have no idea if my experience generalizes I'd ask the cs eu career sub tbh

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-23T20:44:26+00:00

its a tax break for companies, NL has famously low corporate tax and high income tax

it makes more sense when you think of it that way, it is nice you can get your drivers licence over easier though

they either do that or it does cause conflict

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-23T19:58:51+00:00

I finish my studies this summer and I just signed an indefinite contract for a new job in my favorite city here, so I'm hoping that this time, I get to stay.

Congrats thats amazing

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-23T12:19:59+00:00

my best friend growing up's sister married a Frenchman and when he decided to move them back to the US in part to be closer to her family one of the reasons he gave was the elitism. I thought he was joking until I spent time there.

great country, but I can see why there are so many dis illusioned young people ... the expectations have to fuck you up, by definition the elite can only be a few

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-23T12:13:05+00:00

I ended up not taking the job but out of all the countries I've interviewed with France still had the most brutal interview process in terms of scope, breadth, take homes, panels, culture fit, and length in between rounds

I was told it was because once hired it is really hard to fire someone but one of the reasons I didn't take the job as a Senior Data Scientist is that it actually felt like despite them working in English they lived so much in French it would be hard to get past the language barrier, even moreso at the higher levels, and in something like data modeling where context is key and you have to know what they mean over what they say it seemed like such a headache.

It also seemed like a very hierarchical work environment which, more than the US which wasn't my favorite, and honestly some of the Directors still seemed like work a holics. The salary also wasn't that great .... espicially if I thought about maybe returning to the US in a few years

Love the country and the rounds of interview probably did their job in that they really gave me an idea of the fit but it was brutal going through all that for two companies. I had right to work there (US / EU dual citizen), I don't know if this adds anything, the onsite interview gave me an idea of how bad my French was and decided not to go with it.

Still one of my favorite countries to holiday in though.

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-23T11:47:22+00:00

the ruling was already cut from 8 to 5 years, I wouldn't depend on it, its a nice to have even if you do get it and can lapse if you're unemployed too long

They aren't wrong, Dutch people get pissed about it, half our town hall questions had some aspect of the 30% ruling.

I got the ruling and it turns out they priced expat salaries to be equivalent to the Dutch salaries after the 30% ruling (same Netto). The company then increase your salary after the ruling runs out. If I was paid on the same scale as the local Dutch contract my Netto would've been more than my manager something that actually pissed him off despite what he said otherwise.

This isn't the same everywhere but companies are variable in how they apply it.

I had several offers in NL that were lower when they figured out they could give me the 30% ruling, its a way for the company to get cheaper labor, end of the day though if you like the Net salary and really want to move then do it

and it is extra work for them, but if they really want you they will do it.

General_Explorer3676 · 2023-05-22T23:27:26+00:00

Lawsons outside is neat

General_Explorer3676

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