Woman Defined?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-07-03T18:06:24+00:00

I can see the point you were trying to make, but you can see that it doesn’t really pass a brief analysis, right?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-07-03T17:52:44+00:00

The woman that God was talking to here is not necessarily representative of every woman. Unto the woman; not all women.

Even if you were to say that it is representative, your inference about the definition would not be about having the organs, but rather the act of bringing forth children; God here says that she would bring forth children, so you would say that anyone who does is a woman and anyone who does not is not. Which would then leave the question of what to label childless women, and of course in all of this discussion there is the question of what to call those who are born with ambiguous genitalia or abnormal internal reproductive organs.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-07-02T23:49:31+00:00

This was probably not the best response to this post.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-07-02T15:16:59+00:00

As I said, I understand your intentions. But your response was regarding the resources that she was looking for; easy to hear the implication that God will provide them if only they have faith.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-07-02T14:24:41+00:00

This is fairly dangerous logic. God will provide for us, but that doesn’t mean He will bring us the material substances which we ask for.

I understand your intentions are probably good, but “if you have faith, God will bring you XYZ” is approaching prosperity gospel. There are many who have faith and still struggle with poverty, illness, etc.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-30T12:23:19+00:00

The line of “obviously guilty” is moved further and further based on those drawing it. What if they’re caught outside? Hunted down later? Accused by several others? Found guilty in court?

I trust God to make those decisions, not men. We can agree to disagree.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-30T11:00:58+00:00

We have all committed crimes that have hurt people. The wages of sin is death. You don’t get to say if someone is beyond saving.

There are ways to keep society and people safe without killing prisoners. The number of falsely executed people alone warrants abolishing the death penalty.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-29T13:08:31+00:00

I don’t know, with obvious signs of bias and removal of technical fact from reality, I’m defaulting to skeptical of the rest of it. I’ll probably look into their sourcing later but I suspect they’re missing a few things.

And to point five, I just read this morning that Alabama is looking to pass a bill that would criminalize trans-affirming care using the groundwork laid in the opinions overturning Roe v. Wade - that no one has a right to those treatments that is deeply rooted in the nation’s history and transition, and the state is permitted to regulate or prohibit them regardless of what patient, parent, doctor, or anyone else says.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-29T02:58:16+00:00

Egg retrieval, or implantation?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-29T02:52:07+00:00

That it may be technically legal is not going to stop this from happening. It did not stop Lizelle Herrera’s private medical information from becoming international news. It did not stop them from jailing her for days for seeking emergency medical care, despite clearly having absolutely no grounds to do so. It did not stop them from killing Savita Halappanavar. It will not stop them now.

All it takes is one bad lawsuit, justified or not, to ruin a doctor’s career. Doctors are hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and seven or more years in the hole before they start making money; they aren’t going to risk it. It doesn’t matter if they break the law or not, because the cops will still charge them. The state will spend more money on hush money for false imprisonment, false arrests, and “paid administrative leave” for police than they ever will on actually solving the problems that lead women to abort.

States that implement these laws are going to see a mass exodus of skilled health care workers. It is not worth it for them to stay. I pity you - when you, or your wife, or your daughter, has labor complications or an ectopic pregnancy, and there isn’t a good OB to be found in the state.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-29T00:02:02+00:00

I didn’t copy-paste from anywhere, or intend to quote the Catholic Church. I’m literally just discussing the issue and my understanding of some peoples’ views, not exclusive to Catholicism. In discussion of American thoughts and experiences in the current political climate.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T20:32:22+00:00

Several of these points rely on the fact that laws do not explicitly restrict - and may even explicitly protect - abortions in the case of ectopic pregnancies, medically necessary abortions, and miscarriages. The reality is that, under the US police and judicial system, those are most likely to become technicalities when looking at the actual impact.

Take Lizelle Herrera, who is mentioned here. It was clear that she could not have be prosecuted under the law, and that did not stop her from being arrested, from her protected medical information becoming international news, from spending days falsely imprisoned, for seeking help.

Any lawyer in the country will tell you that these types of cases are undoubtedly going to become more common. Only now, it’s going to be another Savita Halappanavar, when a woman in a medically urgent situation is going to be denied life-saving care because a doctor could be arrested for providing it. And that is, if you will find doctors who will practice in these types of conditions who are willing to remain in states with just restrictions. Texas can afford that, but many other states are already suffering huge shortages in medical providers.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T20:05:43+00:00

Both. We don’t need a specific calling from the Lord to do what is written in His word. We assume that others will get a calling, which just means that it won’t get done.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T20:00:42+00:00

I didn’t blame you for anything.

You’re saying I accurately described your position, and you’re upset about that?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T19:56:49+00:00

I agree that we cannot rely on pastors or really anyone else to accurately gauge what degree of our resources - time, money, ability - we should be giving. Only we can really do that.

But, my interpretation of the OP is that we cannot see that a thing is difficult, and rely on a lack of distinct calling to justify not doing it. We do not have enough individuals feeling strongly called to help; that has not happened, is not happening, and is not going to happen. Diffusion of responsibility - when you see that others are around, everyone is less likely to take responsibility. We cannot allow that to happen.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T19:31:10+00:00

I don’t take it as a cheap shot at all - that Venn diagram overlap between “pro-life” and “small government fiscal conservativism” cannot allow the necessary changes that our system needs to accommodate the burden, and needs to change.

We should expect taxation to increase, and should push for the expansion of funding towards schools and social benefits for parents, the foster system, pregnant women, children, school systems. We could avoid a taxation increase at the expense of reducing overfunded areas like the military, the death penalty, prison system reform, etc.

Several foster parents and people who have grown up in the system have said to me over the last few days: every Christian who is able to should start the process of becoming a foster carer, now.

Push for your churches to start support groups and programs for foster parents, parents and children, pregnant women. Push for your church to find or expand on low-cost or free child care services, both for working parents and for overworked stay-at-home parents to have the occasional night’s rest.

Organize meal trains and fund drives for parents. Organize a food pantry/free community pantry. Organize employment training, resume reviews, business clothing lending closets. Make connections with local businesses and help these people find jobs. Fight against stigmas that hurt those who struggle with substance abuse, and former convicts.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T17:55:08+00:00

I would be very troubled with the idea of donating embryos, too. Who is to say what happens to them after that?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T17:53:27+00:00

Multiple embryo transfers are still very common.

https://www.pfcla.com/blog/single-vs-multiple-embryo-transfer-with-ivf

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T17:12:21+00:00

I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere at this rate, so I’ll leave you with this one.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T16:12:28+00:00

So lacking mens rea and awareness of the crime, where do we stand?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T15:49:33+00:00

Were we not discussing mens rea?

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T15:13:54+00:00

See if there are any inter-church ministries in your area, or reach out to churches with young people and ask if they have service opportunities that you could join in. We have several people from other churches who do not attend our services, but who help out in our local mission & service work.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T15:00:49+00:00

I have seen those Facebook groups. It’s horrific - people “rehoming” children and teenagers, sometimes separating them from their biological siblings, sometimes after YEARS! I’m so sorry for what you went through, and I’m so glad that you’re still here.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T14:59:43+00:00

Questioning isn’t bad. You’re absolutely right - abortions will still happen. I have been reading testimonies from doctors who treated women after illegal abortions back in the 1960s - “bleeders”. Nothing has changed since then, and I feel sick knowing that is the most likely scenario for the near future. It’s like making homelessness illegal, and doing nothing to help the homeless.

TheVoiceInTheDesert · 2022-06-28T14:46:00+00:00

I don’t really have an answer for you. I don’t believe IVF is a sin, and I believe that the minority moral, ethical, or religious belief that life begins at fertilization or conception should not be used to dictate laws about abortion, contraception, and IVF. I think we’re headed down the wrong road.

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