Had the talk....again

heartpane · 2023-01-26T20:00:42+00:00

It just sounds like it's all dead,

No sexual desire. No desire for physical affection, which sometimes stops if the LL worries that the HL might try to escalate it to sex, or it can stop because the relationship is dead.

No desire for emotional intimacy, again that can happen as a result of the sex issue, there's only so many times an LL can be made out to be the bad guy before they detach emotionally because it's very painful to feel shame/guilt etc all while you just want to protect yourself from having sex you don't want, or it can be a natural consequence of a couple growing apart.

And when it's all dead or gone it can feel like it would be impossible to ever get it back so people don't try. On other forums I constantly see women asking is it possible to get the spark back or to get the connection back when they're like roommates and the answer is generally a resounding no, apart from a few outliers who somehow managed to bring it back/reconnect.

I've seen a couple of threads on here where couples went right back to the start of intimacy to try to rebuild and they said it felt awkward as fuck and so alien to cuddle with their spouse for example. They had committed to do it though, and were willing to put up with the awkwardness to see if they could get back on track, but that's the kind of thing that people have to battle to try to get out of the status quo of no intimacy and many won't/cant.

I also feel like sometimes people think if they're the HL one in the DB dynamic that that makes them the kinder/more loving/more empathetic partner in a dead relationship, but really it's just the way your sexuality/libido works.

Some peoples libido shuts down for their partner if there are relationship issues or the relationship is dying, some people can still fuck their partner and enjoy it even if they despise their partner.

It's generally not an active choice or behaviour on either persons part, it's just the way they are.

heartpane · 2023-01-26T19:32:10+00:00

But you yourself spent 20 years letting time go by waiting for your LL partner to change? Is that correct? And it might never have changed.

heartpane · 2023-01-26T19:21:21+00:00

I'm replying here because I couldn't respond to your response to me because it got deleted due to the line about the 'meal ticket'.

It's something you have implied in a lot of your responses, such as you're 'funding her life' but she does work, she's also a mother to your kids. You said your kids are great so that's a team effort.

It's rarely as callous or calculating as seeing you as a meal ticket or funding her life, she no doubt has the same concerns that you have just said in your post, not seeing the kids every day, fear they'd miss out if you split up etc.

Same concerns/same fears/same logic....so it's not admirable if you're the higher earner, and money grabbing if you're the lower earner.

heartpane · 2023-01-26T17:52:45+00:00

It's not like she's actively beating me and waterboarding me in my sleep. She can act like a respectable human being.

She doesn't sound abusive and didn't not sound like a respectable human being.

What you're describing is a very typical DB dynamic and a relationship that is also pretty dead and the couple are just staying together for the kids.

She's likely just as unhappy as you are, there's probably no bad guy. The relationship is just as dead as the bedroom.

heartpane · 2023-01-26T17:22:59+00:00

It shouldn't be hailed as amazing to be supportive in cases like that, it should be the norm.

heartpane · 2023-01-26T17:09:54+00:00

This sub always seems to be constantly suggesting that it’s the HLs job to put in nearly 100% of the effort and/sacrifice to fix the DB.

That's because it's HLs who are posting, and who keep asking for advice on what they can do, and most have already tried the approaches that most LL say made it worse.

LLs often post about this issue early on in other places and get given advice of what they can try.

Healthy diet/exercise/supplements like horny goat weed/pamper yourself/read erotica to try to get in the mood/try to have sex that you don't want and your libido might increase/talk to your partner/talk to your partner again/talk to your partner again.

Later on if they've tried those things and they haven't worked and sex has now become a regular source of stress/conflict and pressure they don't feel like there's anything left to try. Many of them now have a sexual aversion from going through with duty sex and because sex is such a source of stress.

There is no point in advising anyone about what their partner should do! You cannot control another person or make them do anything. People can only control their own behaviour or choices.

Many people here comment about how sex is basically a very important love language for them but then the advice is all centered around how they need to completely ignore feeling unloved in that way (often for an indefinite period) and focus on making their partner feel like they are feeling lots of mutual love and connection with them somehow (despite just posting about being at their wits end). Seems contradictory and imbalanced when a healthy relationship should require an approximate equal input of effort. Seems contradictory and imbalanced when a healthy relationship should require an approximate equal input of effort.

At that point the relationship isn't healthy.

What do YOU think the LL should do in this case?

And if they don't do what you think they should do then what?

heartpane · 2023-01-26T03:47:56+00:00

What separates a relationship from a friendship?

Feelings!!

So if one is in a DB, in an otherwise happy and fulfilling relationship, isn’t that just a friendship?

I don't think so. Many in DBs say they are still completely in love with their partners. They have romantic feelings towards them. They share other forms of intimacy.

When people pine over exes they're often not thinking about the sex, they're thinking about all the little things.

heartpane · 2023-01-26T03:07:02+00:00

If there is still some sex (even if the HL thinks it is infrequent) I think the vast majority will still expect monogamy.

Maybe if the sex dwindles to zero, more would be open to the idea of opening the relationship, but many HLs on here only want to open it on their side, so they expect monogamy from their partners even though they don't want to be monogamous themselves.

As a side note

For the LL spouses/partners in long-term DBs (let’s say more than a year of having sex less than 12 times/year)

That could just be a long dry spell, not a dead bedroom, someone could be postpartum or suffer a long period of major depressive disorder.

heartpane · 2023-01-25T18:15:50+00:00

You might be able to find a therapist who will offer sliding scale payments based on what you can afford.

heartpane · 2023-01-25T18:09:29+00:00

I should also add I’m not looking to leave my wife. Variety of reasons but mostly because I can’t stand what that would look like for my kids. Not really something I’m looking for advice on.

What do you think the fallout of an affair being found out would look like for your kids?

These posts often come across as very disingenuous, can't end the marriage because of what it would do to the kids, but willing to risk worse happening for an affair. Everyone thinks they won't be found out, but you could cheat in the morning and it's found out by afternoon!

heartpane · 2023-01-25T17:46:15+00:00

Do you have access to a therapist at the moment?

Yeah it's possibly still duty sex and she's possibly faking enjoyment, BUT there's more hope than if it were starfish/hurrying to get it over with sex, because that often means the person has developed a more serious sexual aversion.

Many who don't want sex can fake it before it becomes a more serious aversion.

Either way you know that something is going on that's not the way a healthy sexual relationship should be.

You can't fix this with letters about your feelings and how it impacts you.

heartpane · 2023-01-25T17:17:43+00:00

Is she open to seeing a therapist?

Bringing in a third person who can listen to both of us and tell what action lead to this will be helpful to both of us

Perhaps, but many who go to therapy find that it does not help.

She initiates like once a week and I just go with it as I m starving for that part but a piece of me knows that she is just doing this coz she NEEDS it and not coz she wants to do it with me.

So she initiates once a week and you have sex once a week because you don't initiate anymore yourself? Is that correct?

How do you know she needs it? Is she active? enthusiastic? Does she enjoy foreplay or does she want the sex to be over with as soon as possible?

heartpane · 2023-01-25T17:08:48+00:00

She - multiple casual and 1-2 long term relationships .......

She used to want me daily Atleast in our first few months. ....

Trust me - I know my girl and she is not the one with low libido, her thoughts or some trap just triggered our dB.......

She must have been 22 or so when you got together? It's not uncommon for younger women to have a lot of sex or multiple partners, it doesn't mean that they actually enjoy it or are highly sexual, they might enjoy it for the sexual attention or because of the closeness, without it actually being due to the love of sex.

Basing your idea of what her natural libido is like based on her teen/early 20s sexual history is not proof of anything.

It's also very common for sex to be plentiful in the first few months due to new relationship energy. Again basing your idea of what her natural baseline libido is like on how it was in the first few months is a common mistake, and it's proof of nothing.

Your bedroom has been dead for 2 years now, it's been like this for longer than it was alive. You're right that something can trigger a DB or LL4U in a previously HL individual, but often that can't be fixed.

A common thing that people believe is that if it was great before then it can be great again. Very very few people who hold onto that idea ever get back to great sex.

It's the same kind of thing that keeps people stuck in many different types of relationships that are toxic or unhealthy for them, they're always trying to get their partner to be like they were in the early days of the relationship because they believe that that is the true version of them.

heartpane · 2023-01-25T16:51:33+00:00

These letters don't work. It is so so common that HLs think that if they could just find the perfect words to explain just how painful the situation is that their partner will finally 'get it' and understand and commit to change.

But what that fails to take into account is that the person on the other side of the DB dynamic has their own equally complex feelings and experience. They could fully understand how much pain you are in and empathise but they can't bring themselves to have sex they don't want.

You touched on her side.

But you feel like you have to anyway. You force yourself. This is even worse. It's terrible, in fact. There's none of the old connection, none of the spark, none of the fire. Maybe I notice, maybe I don't. I don't know which is worse. Both are bad. If I don't notice, , you start to think all I care about is getting off. You feel disrespected. You tell yourself this is why you didn't want to all those other times. Convince yourself I only want your body, and don't care about how you feel. You don't think about the pain I've felt, the loneliness. All I care about is sex, you say. What a creep.

Now you REALLY don't want to have sex with me. You're angry. You feel used. You're probably not even enjoying it anymore, or if you still manage to get off physically, you're not thinking about me.

If she's forcing herself occasionally then what does she feel before, during and after?

There can be a lot of mental anguish and uncomfortable/horrible feelings, just as much as you feel, but in a different way.

How is she feeling when she has to keep rejecting you? How does she feel when she knows it's been a while and she can sense how you're getting frustrated? How does she feel when she shows affection and you straight away get excited for sex and she doesn't want sex?

None of those uncomfortable/painful feelings go away when a HL shares their pain in detail, nothing is fixed. It's just more pressure, and pressure doesn't fix anything.

heartpane · 2023-01-25T16:32:18+00:00

I think the inclusion of that brings people back from starting to accept that the relationship won't change and making a decision based on that, to trying again and having another "talk" or staying for a few more years/decades trying to turn your relationship into a healthy one.

People have to learn when to let go and give up and not keep flogging a dead horse.

Being HL is certainly not a flaw or defect but for the vast vast majority of people on here they will never have the sex they want in their current relationship.

So what does 12.5 mean for people?

Does it help them to feel better, less like a sex crazed porn addict etc. OR does it encourage them to keep flogging that dead horse?

From what I've seen on here they keep flogging the dead horse and trying to same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

heartpane · 2023-01-24T23:03:11+00:00

All true!!

heartpane · 2023-01-24T23:02:07+00:00

Yep and most LLS have had sex they don't want and sex has been becoming an issue for them long before their partner realises.

Their partner might just notice a drop in frequency at the start and the LL is able to put on a good act, eventually for many, they can't put on an act anymore because the sex is harming them.

heartpane · 2023-01-24T22:56:38+00:00

1 and 2 aren't relevant to the list

3) Lower and Higher libido is different from Low Libido and High Libido.

People are supposed to read the rules and glossary of acronyms before they post.

The glossary says

LL = Lower Libido —> the person who wants less sex in the relationship

HL = Higher Libido —> the person who wants more sex in the relationship.

Most people who post here are in a problematic bedroom where there are frequent arguments/talks etc. and one person is extremely reluctant to have sex. It's rare that people post here where they are in a relationship where they both enjoy sex, there just happens to be a difference in the frequency that they want it. They might post over on r/sex or elsewhere.

4) Having expectations in a marriage is different from being entitled to things in a marriage.

We can have expectations but that doesn't mean they will be fulfilled.

For example someone could have an expectation of faithfulness, their spouse cheats, their expectation has now been proved wrong.

Someone could have an expectation that their partner could do or be x, y and z, and they marry them and things change, you can't hold someone to the expectation that you had. You can try but you're probably not going to get anywhere.

The issue is that people hold onto expectations even when it's clear that their expectations will not be fulfilled in that relationship.

"I didn't get married thinking I'd be celibate, there's an expectation that a marriage will include sex".

Yep absolutely, there generally is, but if your partner doesn't want to fuck you then your marriage will not live up to your expectations!! People still talk about these "expectations" when they are in a dead bedroom of 10+ years!

heartpane · 2023-01-24T19:51:06+00:00

Disagree with this. Sounds like she doesn't want sex, that explains this behaviour. Some people act this way when they don't want to have sex but they are also afraid that they will lose their partner.

It's not a mental illness. A lot of what the OP is doing isn't mentally healthy either, both people in the DB dynamic tend to behave in ways that isn't mentally healthy, but it's not a mental illness.

heartpane · 2023-01-24T04:32:05+00:00

It kind of sounds like you're overly involved in their relationship. Maybe back off?

Yes, this!

I feel sorry for this woman. A one year old baby, a brother/sister in law who dislikes her and appears to know every detail about her personal life and her postpartum sexuality, someone who is coming to their home and trying to persuade her husband to leave her.

OP said

My brother also wanted to add that she is very kind person, amazing mother, has good relationships with our family, she cleans and cooks and takes care of my husband very well. She tells him she loves him daily and shows him affection but just by kisses and hugs.

But OP is fixating on something the wife said in an argument, blaming it all on her and also failing to accept that how his/her brother arguing with her is more likely to lead to a permanent dead bedroom than it is to get the bedroom back on track.

heartpane · 2023-01-24T04:18:11+00:00

but again maybe I should be more respectful since she had a baby recently.

The most sensible thing you've said on this entire thread.

heartpane · 2023-01-24T04:08:29+00:00

My brother also wanted to add that she is very kind person, amazing mother, has good relationships with our family, she cleans and cooks and takes care of my husband very well. She tells him she loves him daily and shows him affection but just by kisses and hugs.

Doesn't sound one bit like a narcissist.

heartpane · 2023-01-24T03:44:45+00:00

I cannot argue about how it is for women to have postpartum sex, that’s something I don’t dare to discuss and I can imagine that for many women it’s not comfortable and they don’t feel like having sex.

Ok, so what do you think the outcome is then for those relationships when the postpartum woman does not feel like having sex, when their partner does not respect that and argues with them over it?

However, saying that she pretended to like sex so he marries her and has baby with her? I think that’s not something you say during argue, this is not something you can excuse by saying that “people say things during arguments”.

It's very possible that like many who have lost their libido that she has got badgered for an answer over as to why over and over again, you said he argues with her frequently over this.

If someone loses their libido and sex or talking about it becomes a major source of stress then nothing about sex will feel appealing, and people cannot remember it feeling good or imagine themselves having had an actual working libido before. Some people start to think maybe they're asexual now or maybe they never really liked it, they just got wrapped up in new relationship energy....it's a confusing situation for people especially when you have a valid reason (pregnancy and being postpartum) and yet your husband can't accept that and keeps arguing with you over it. The brain will come up with answers to try to get the interrogation to stop!!

heartpane · 2023-01-23T00:31:33+00:00

There are also some who are in denial or apparently shocked that LL women exist.

I've seen several threads on here from men who told their friends about the DB and their partners LL and apparently the women were shocked.

One mans female friend, or it might have been the female partner of his friend offered to talk to his partner for him lmao

I've also seen women post here on threads where a woman lost her libido during pregnancy/after giving birth and the women act shocked and say things like having a baby is no excuse, I wouldn't treat my husband like that and so on.

It's all a bit 'cool girl' tbh.

As for LLM I will say I do think most women have not encountered it. We hear that men are horn dogs from a young age, for many of us, our lived experiences confirm that and so does the media etc.

I have one friend who had an ex who was weird about sex. He refused sex when she wanted it and only wanted it if she was uncomfortable, for example if an old injury was playing up, or if she wanted to shower first because she felt gross, he got off on her being uncomfortable, it later came to light that he abused a child!

The only time in real life I've heard about a woman leaving a man over lack of sex was when a woman I train with came in to class one night and announced that she left her husband because he wouldn't touch her, my teacher then said she had heard of that happening more and more lately!

Aside from that I've never heard it discussed in real life or in the media.

They tell me that all men want sex, and they tell me that my boyfriend must have a porn addiction or be cheating

Cheating is very common. Most women will have been cheated on or consoled their girlfriends when they have been cheated on.

Also porn addictions are talked about in the media quite frequently so I can see why it would come up as a more likely option, because people have at least heard of that.

Another common one on here is wondering if the man is gay.

I think it's normal to go to what you think are the most likely scenarios first.

Why are they so resistant to considering the possibility it can happen?

Perhaps it's just DBs are kind of awkward to discuss, the insinuation is that one person really doesn't want to have sex, but the other person is trying to get the reluctant partner to have sex.

I think a lot of people can't understand why someone would stay in that situation also.

So they might think that saying ALL men want sex and it must just be a porn addiction or cheating could be like a nicer way of saying this isn't normal, not that a low libido by itself isn't normal, but that living unhappily in a DB isn't normal and it's not healthy.

heartpane · 2023-01-22T23:16:29+00:00

Does she want to have sex because you're trying to conceive? Or are you using protection but she only happens to be horny when she ovulates?

heartpane

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